The Double Double

[DuncNZ]

Lovely Shotgun , it is a rare and valuable firearm , There were a number of different firearms using both cap and flintlock made and a number still exist .
About the stock key with the loop hole . If you look at the junction of the barrels and the tang , you can plainly see the line of the breakoff separating the patent breaches from the tang .This gun was once cased .
At the time this was made it was thought that flintlocks shot "harder" than percussion thus this type of shotgun ,and percussion guns were looked on askance by many as unreliable , remember that percussion caps as we know them were still in their final stages of development . This is a British shotgun used for shooting Pheasants etc not deer . The wealthy shooter would have a Gamekeeper or Ghillie with him and would never usually carry game birds himself , or maybe never load his gun himself , certainly never clean it , Deer were carried on Ponies bred for that job . and the Brits had plenty of accurate rifles by this time
A rare and unusual find , thanks for sharing . One last thing , are there any marks under the barrels ?.

 

[cornstalk]

Thank you so much Cutfinger for that information! Yes there are some marks, one on each barrel.

 

[pamtnman]

Can you bring these proof marks into focus please? My eyes are bad enough and are challenged by the most basic visuals.

 

[cornstalk]

Photo s with my iphone, the best I've got. And the marks are a bit blurred themselves. Here are some closeups, one with a "photoshop" filter applied to tray and sharpen the image.

 

[stikshooter]

I think amazing

So here she is. The Double Double (for lack of a better description). A double 20 smoothbore with double ignition; flint and percussion cap. Made by Jones (I think John Jones) of Birmingham London. I'm guessing in the 1820's. I found records of Jones buying a shop in 1817. He died in 1837.

It was certainly used but is still in excellent condition.

View attachment 106656

If you look closely at this next picture you'll see a plate that is pushed forward or back to cover/uncover the barrel's flash hole depending on whether shooting cap or flint.

View attachment 106657

The scroll work is beautiful and intricate.

View attachment 106658

View attachment 106659

This next picture has me stumped. When I first saw this I thought a shoulder strap attachment. Yea that's not what this is because it retains the barrel in the stock. Quick takedown maybe?

View attachment 106660

Even has the original ram rod.

View attachment 106661

I am honored to be the current caretaker of this gun. And there it is, this gun will outlive me and hopefully those after me. I'm amazed at the genius, creativity and talent that people had using what we'd consider "old fashioned" hand tools.

And for me the most important statement this gun makes is just because you've never heard of it before, or it isn't in primary documentation, doesn't mean it didn't exist.

View attachment 106664

Where did I find it? A gentleman who comes across pristine and/or unique weapons.

I think amazing covers it best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/Ed

 

[DuncNZ]

Photo s with my iphone, the best I've got. And the marks are a bit blurred themselves. Here are some closeups, one with a "photoshop" filter applied to tray and sharpen the image.

View attachment 107336

View attachment 107337

A description in writing would be better than these photographs . It should be something like a crown over a GP or a crown over a V. It is not surprising that the gun is is such good condition , It was in and out of fashion so quickly it would not have had a lot of use .

 

[cornstalk]

Okay, played around with the camera settings and came up with these. Definitely a crown over what looks like maybe a shield or roman numeral III with something under it.

 

[pamtnman]

Definitely more legible, thank you. It’s not showing up as any of the London or Birmingham proofs that I can find. Not really surprising, because formal proof marks were only required in 1813 by the Proof Act. Before that “local gunmakers arranged their own proof and gunmakers’ private marks will be found on early weapons,” says Nigel Brown in British Gunmakers, Volume One. This gun is probably made right around 1813, give or take a few years either way.
It does look like a crown over M. That would probably be one of the early Birmingham marks.

 

[DuncNZ]

I shoot with a guy who has a 16 bore (gauge ) or .62 Purdy rifled carbine , It is one of the first Purdy's made in percussion lock as we now know it . There is a platinum plug going into the breach immediately below the nipple , this plug has a very small hole in it , going into the chamber , the purpose of this hole is to emulate the flash hole on a flintlock , to allow powder to settle in the breach better . When this rifle is fired there is a most disturbing flintlock like spurt of gas and powder out the hole . I believe it was thought this made the rifle shoot harder ,

Okay, played around with the camera settings and came up with these. Definitely a crown over what looks like maybe a shield or roman numeral III with something under it.

View attachment 107349

View attachment 107350

These are the Proof marks on my Henry Nock 14 ga shotgun Crown over V and the V is very obvious as is the Crown over GP .This gun was made by Nock in the 1780's and has been converted to caplock some time later .Also note HN Patent on the breach plug, this gun has been my family since it was made . I suspect my Great Great Grandfather did the conversion

 

[cornstalk]

Thanks guys. I was looking at this resource for proof marks which is I guess maybe from the same source.

Proof mark dates for British Guns

 

[DuncNZ]

The first English proof laws with the crown over V and over GP were made in 1760 , In 1813 the law changed and the above photo shows the new proofs

 

[pamtnman]

Yes, Corn, these barrel marks are unique. Probably a personal mark by a barrel maker (Manton?). The gun is fab either way and requires a full article.

 

[DuncNZ]

Thanks guys. I was looking at this resource for proof marks which is I guess maybe from the same source.

Proof mark dates for British Guns

My Book is "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks " By Gerhard Wirnsberger ISBN 0-89149-006-X and covers most Countries and most proof marks

 

[cornstalk]

Ahhhh, I was under the assumption that English proof laws didn't exist before 1813. Great information guys, I can't thank you enough!!!

 

[DuncNZ]

Manton's makers mark was a rather bumpy looking crown with 3 small circles just above the spike . Nothing underneath . The Brits are still hand stamping barrels , proving involves precisely measuring all barrel dimensions , then firing a proof load , then re measuring to make sure there hasn't been any expansion . I believe that US companies proof test their own barrels , consumer protection laws and litigious Lawyers make sure the proofing is through .

 

[TFoley]

The Double Gun Journal might be interested in an article featuring this wonderfully strange rifle

It's a shotgun.

 

[TFoley]

Manton's makers mark was a rather bumpy looking crown with 3 small circles just above the spike . Nothing underneath . The Brits are still hand stamping barrels , proving involves precisely measuring all barrel dimensions , then firing a proof load , then re measuring to make sure there hasn't been any expansion . I believe that US companies proof test their own barrels , consumer protection laws and litigious Lawyers make sure the proofing is through .

Which is why the rest of the world has set its own proof standards with the CIP regulations.

As such, the USA has no governmental or federal proof houses, relying instead on the gunmaker to test his own product. Incidentally, in the UK, there are just two proof houses, one in each of the principal centres of the gun-trade -Birmingham and London, both in England.

Every US-made firearm imported into any of the fourteen CIP-signaturee nations for sale there must be subjected to the gun proof houses of that nation. Only having been proofed can it then be sold on the commercial market with the CIP area of trade. Note that the US-centric SAAMI is NOT regulatory, but advisory only, and has no basis in law. The CIP regulations ARE part of the law of that nation. Selling a modern-made gun in any of those fourteen countries without gun-proof is a criminal offence. However, anybody buying or selling an antique firearm to a collector can do so with an unproofed firearm with the proviso that the onus of proof lies with the buyer, not the vendor, should the buyer choose to shoot it.

In the case of a US-made revolver, each chamber of the cylinder is proofed individually, in exactly the same way as a similar firearm made within the CIP constraints.

Common sense should prevail, and anybody wishing to shoot, say, an 1861 Springfield rifled musket imported from the USA, would be strongly advised to have it proofed before shooting it. Shooting an unproofed gun that subsequently fails, injuring a person other than the shooter, will make the owner liable for any injuries that may ensue.

 

[Packrat]

I would think, (sometimes I do) that if using the Flint side, the scraping on the Frizzen would slow down the impact on the nipples. I also wonder about flash back through the nipples.

 

[GBG]

So here she is. The Double Double


And for me the most important statement this gun makes is just because you've never heard of it before, or it isn't in primary documentation, doesn't mean it didn't exist.

Magnificent specimen of ingenuity and craftsmanship.

I think you share my awe and veneration for the intelligence and creativity of our predecessors. From the flintlock to fire piston to fire itself, I have always been stunned by our ancestor's ability to comprehend and apply physical, chemical and mathematical concepts without the aid modern scientific and engineering knowledge.

I wish you and more like you had always been members of this forum.

(2) Compression ignition? | The Muzzleloading Forum

 

[Feltwad]

First may I say that this gun is a first class example of a percussion flintlock combination although I have seen a few this is the best . It is thought that John Jones was the maker but I believe it was later lets not forget that there were many patented gun makers called Jones working in Birmingham through to the breech loading period .There is many questions asked concerning the ignition ,first take a look at the nipples these are originals and may not have been changed since the gun was made . They are not mushroomed with continues pounding so that means the fall of the hammer is restricted, going off the image the hammer must have a shoulder stop of some kind on the inside of the hammer that is set when the hammer falls hits the brass stop, this is enough too ignite the cap but not pound it and also to put sparks into the pan . To control the fire off each a plate is fitted to slide in and out in the breech plug ,this plate is similar too Rowntree self priming flintlocks When the plate is pulled out it should cover the pan and allow a clear vent for the nipple , when it is pushed back in it blocks off the nipple vent and allows the fire from the pan to ignite the main charge . Has for the ring in the barrel wedge this is for some tool to extract the wedge too remove the barrels
Although I have never seen or handled a gun like this I have seen and worked on similar so this is my theory but I must admit I could be many a mile out of its intended method , but there is one thing I can say it is English gun making at its best although I am a patriot
Feltwad