The FIRST Bowie Knife??

[satx78247]

AGREED 100% ===> That's WHY Charles Oliver wanted to buy Rezin Bowie's fighting knife & donate it to The Alamo Shrine's collection.

My guess (and that's all that it is: a GUESS) is that the family doesn'r care about provenance, as they have had the knife in the family home since the Mexican LT brought it home AND they have no interest at all in displaying, selling, donating and/or doing anything else with the knife, except KEEPING it in the family.
(I heard "second hand" that the family didn't know WHO Rezin Bowie was & didn't much care who he was.)

Note: IF I was a member of the family (& was of the same opinion as the family members are), what I would worry about is the LOSS of the knife by fire, theft, storm, etc.

yours, satx

 

[Zonie]

It is too bad the knife wasn't brought back but I think I understand the family's feeling.

"That knife belonged to your great, great, great, great, great,great uncle, Don Jose Fernando Santiago de Norte !!!
The family will treasure it always."

Who owned it before it was found has no meaning to them.

 

[necchi]

Who owned it before it was found has no meaning to them.

:hmm: Now that makes sense,, at least lends understanding to how the family could feel.
But doesn't that whole thing lend at least suspicion as to actual provenance?
I mean this entire thread demonstrates that the Bowie knife style and shape changed/developed in as little as 40yrs.
No disrespect intended, but for those of us that haven't studied Bowie Knife history in detail it is a hodge-podge of actual proven artifacts and random claims. I'm sure that those that have studied are at this time sure of the facts they have

 

[satx78247]

Even though I'm a "known Alamo Shrine fanatic", I agree with you 100%.
(I like to think that if it was our family, who had custody of Rezin Bowie's knife, that we would happily give it to The Shrine but I'm far from sure as to how the members of my family would feel.)

yours, satx

 

[satx78247]

Fwiw, the late/lamented Charles Oliver, who was an expert on TX history, was allowed to see, inspect & actually hold the Bowie's knife. - I'm told that he said that he had no doubt whatever of the Rezin Bowie's knife's provenance.

Personally, I hope that one day that the Bowie's Knife will come back to Texas, though Arkansas likely has at least as good of a claim to it as we Texicans do.

yours, satx

 

[Rifleman1776]

IF I was a member of the family (& was of the same opinion as the family members are), what I would worry about is the LOSS of the knife by fire, theft, storm, etc.

Exactly. And that is a big reason why I donated my Jimmy Lile made NMLRA Bicentennial Commemorative Bowie to the Historic Arkansas Museum. It had been a safe queent for many years now others can see and enjoy.

 

[satx78247]

GOOD on you, imVho.

This situation is PERSONAL to me, as my collection of antique pocket watches, our wedding photos, my grandfather's treasured ruby ring & several "hard to find"/expensive firearms were "washed away" by a hurricane.
(Insurance cannot replace family heirlooms.)

yours, satx

 

[necchi]

my Jimmy Lile made NMLRA Bicentennial Commemorative Bowie

Is that one supposed to be a "special" kind of Bowie?
Honest question,, What is or does that knife represent besides a limited edition by a renowned artist as a fund raiser for a specific group ?
Is it a specific copy that represents one of the "known"-"original"-"Bowie" knives?
Somehow Jimmy Lile knives are special because,,??
Are "rambo" knives,, "Bowie" knives that deserve special attention?

I can buy one today on ebay for $2,500, I get that,, why is it "special"?

 

[Rifleman1776]

my Jimmy Lile made NMLRA Bicentennial Commemorative Bowie

Is that one supposed to be a "special" kind of Bowie?
Honest question,, What is or does that knife represent besides a limited edition by a renowned artist as a fund raiser for a specific group ?
Is it a specific copy that represents one of the "known"-"original"-"Bowie" knives?
Somehow Jimmy Lile knives are special because,,??
Are "rambo" knives,, "Bowie" knives that deserve special attention?

I can buy one today on ebay for $2,500, I get that,, why is it "special"?

Agree. It is one of many versions of a 'Bowie' knife. Yes, it is special for two reasons. Jimmy Lile was a renown knife maker, especially in Arkansas. At the time of donation it was the only one in the museum which was not a used hunter, or whatever. It is presentation grade in 'as new' condition. And, it is the NMLRA Bicentennial commemorative one of one knife with appropriate engraving. I'll agree it might be more of an Arkansas treasure than national.
Have you looked at it? http://www.historicarkansas.org/collections/knife-bowie-type-4

 

[necchi]

That's great, really. Sharing that mint issue item with the museum is/was a great thing to do. It will now be cared for,, for a long time.
It's a Bowie type knife, made buy a local artist.

My point is, these are the things that confound discussions about original Bowie knives.
As stax has explained in this topic that the true original Bowie knives,(those that are documented), went through some pretty unique changes in a short period as both the Bowie brothers capitalized on the lore of the day as they traveled.
Documented original Bowie knives are those that are not even made by the brothers, but commissioned to other knife makers as Bowie design to be sold or gifted as a "Bowie knife".

The problem is there are now "Historic","Bowie","Knives" are available everywhere. And honestly today a Bowie Knife means long with a drop point.
It seems people think it's a Manley thing to have a great big chunk of old lawnmower blade that got hack-sawed on one end for the hand to grip,, ground down with a die grinder,, tossed in a fire till red and beat-on with a carpenters hammer,(leave the burnt part on,, that's cool),,

I was hoping the topic would stay on about actual Bowie brother knives.

(i think most of us got bowie knife when we were 10, or at least wanted one!, it was a big cool knife that was better then the barlow folder we got at 8)

 

[necchi]

so now? Back to The FIRST Bowie Knife??

 

[satx78247]

WHAT exactly would you like to discuss about The FIRST Bowie's Knife?
(Note how I described it.)

yours, satx

 

[necchi]

How was provenance made besides one man saying, "yup, that's what I think."
I'm not saying you are the source, this has been studied for a long time.
Is there a trail of documentation?
Please, It's a serious question.
I want to be able to tell someone else "I know because of this fact".
You have your sources. I'm hoping for something beyond some guy say's he's an expert, therefore his expert opinion is,,,?
Again, I'm not trying to say you have this provenance,, I'm asking about the actual source.

 

[satx78247]

Well, IF you don't accept the expert opinion of the curator of HAM, of The Alamo Shrine & a late/much lamented expert on TX historical blades, I seriously doubt if you will accept any other source.
(Charles Oliver, unlike any person who was living in 1986, had SEEN & INSPECTED both Bowie brothers, essentially identical, fighting knives & said that the knife in Mexico was without question Rezin Bowie's.)

Note: As I said earlier, the family had no idea who Rezin was & I find it highly unlikely that they could have had an even "passable" copy made, not knowing how it was marked with his cattle brand, much less fool a known expert on period blades.

Btw, I found out about "the borrowed knife" on my honeymoon in JUL 1974, when we visited Little Washington, AR where the ORIGINAL knife that Rezin gave the Colonel was then displayed. = Truthfully, I thought it was a joke, when the curator told me that they, "- - - - have your COL Bowie's actual knife on display".
(In those days, just about every Texican "knew" that COL Bowie, as sick as he was with Typhoid/TB & with a broken leg, shot, stabbed & slashed several Mexican soldiers with his famous "Iron Mistress" before he was killed by numerous Mexican bullets & bayonets.)
Then the curator told my bride & I that COL Bowie had taken Rezin's knife to TX & used it in The Alamo Fight.

As to the FIRST Bowie's Knife (the UGLY, CRUDE-looking blade that now belongs to The Alamo's collection), it remained in the family of COL Bowie's friend until it was purchased, determined to be THE ORIGINAL (and only knife that Jim Bowie mad himself) & then donated to The Shrine.

yours, satx

 

[necchi]

Well, IF you don't accept the expert opinion of the curator of HAM,

Honestly Sir, I did a google search of the acronym HAM, https://www.google.com/search?q=HAM&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1
Ok? you can guess what that shows, you don't even have to be offended by looking right?, what is H.A.M.?
Why should I know HAM? Why or how should or can anyone un-involved in or with your personal research know what those acronyms are when your tying to explain?
How can I or anyone understand?
Back it up a notch will ya? It's a quasi-public forum, people will look at this years from now and know I don't understand HAM, and I don't even know what your saying? No Clue., you expect me to believe HAM?
(again I even looked for it)

 

[satx78247]

OK. - My bad.

At least in the Southland, most every "history-interested person" knows that HAM is the usual abbreviation for: HISTORIC ARKANSAS MUSEUM.

In point of fact, "HAM" is a fairly commonplace "shorthand" for the name of the museum on this forum.

yours, satx