The flintlock is a made in India. Identify malfunctions and their elimination

[Pete G]

Restoration is totally different than trying to make an indifferently assembled pile of scrap metal function as a lock.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Kasenite and Cherry red are compounds that are good for very superficial hardening. However, case hardening to a depth necessary for a long lasting frizzen requires time at proper temperature. For deep hardening times need to be in hours.

dave

 

[Artificer]

Hi,
Kasenite and Cherry red are compounds that are good for very superficial hardening. However, case hardening to a depth necessary for a long lasting frizzen requires time at proper temperature. For deep hardening times need to be in hours.

dave

Dave is EXACTLY right. Kasenite will only work for a limited number of times before the flint scratches/carves its way through the thin surface hardening.

Now if like most of us Audrey22 doesn't have a heat treating oven, then an absolutely authentic period "fix" would be to rivet or better still solder a "half sole," made of real steel, to the face of the Frizzen. If you know anyone who has a power hacksaw, those blades make an excellent source of steel for half soling a Frizzen.

Gus

 

[Professor flintlock]

Dave is EXACTLY right. Kasenite will only work for a limited number of times before the flint scratches/carves its way through the thin surface hardening.

Now if like most of us Audrey22 doesn't have a heat treating oven, then an absolutely authentic period "fix" would be to rivet or better still solder a "half sole," made of real steel, to the face of the Frizzen. If you know anyone who has a power hacksaw, those blades make an excellent source of steel for half soling a Frizzen.

Gus

I had luck on one of those locks with wrap it in leather put it in a soup can .Then put it in a hot hard wood (beech or white oak) 2 hours or so . Make sure to keep it down in the hot center of coals. Pull it out and drop it in a bucket of cold water. When cool re install the frozen and voulla. A sparking frozen. Oh yeah bend the top of the soup can over and crunch it shut with big channel locks. Good luck it works.

 

[Rudyard]

I would think the enclosed tin route would bring about a violent explosion of steam .Even sudden plunging into cold water need s be done length ways lest it warp the lock plate . But the cooking in bone horn leather ect charred is sound.
Rudyard

 

[Capnball]

This flintlock not throwing sparks. I took apart the flintlock and examined it carefully. The following faults and shortcomings were identified

1. The frizzen does not produce sparks - the steel is of poor quality, there is little carbon in it.
2. The safety descent protrudes too far forward and when the trigger is released from the combat platoon, the sear rests against the safety platoon - it is impossible to descend from the combat platoon.
3. The pan is not even.
4. Large gap between frizzen and pan.
5. Traces of files on the surface of the lock
6. Corrosion on some parts of the castle.
7. The top jaw screw has an irregular shape, the screw has no slots for the screwdriver and hole.
8. The screws are not made correctly and roughly.
9. There is no second threaded hole for the screw fastening the lock to the stock.

It's almost like some formen at the Indian gun factory said to a worker, "Baboo, we're making nice wall hangers! If you make it any better those silly americans will try to fire them!"

 

[toot]

KASENIT, or CHERY RED, will keep building up a 0.10 thousands layer each time you repeat the process. when I am doing it I do it at least 10 application's at a setting. have never had to repeat after that. JMHO.

 

[Professor flintlock]

I would think the enclosed tin route would bring about a violent explosion of steam .Even sudden plunging into cold water need s be done length ways lest it warp the lock plate . But the cooking in bone horn leather ect charred is sound.
Rudyard

Oh I forgot keep your face out of the water bucket.And don't drink the water.Some of us do these things and others just postulate on them.Throw what's left of the can into the water making sure the moon is behind you. And you will survive.

 

[Andrey22]

A friend of mine succeeded increasing the carbon content of the frizzen.
I checked - flint is good at carving sparks.
My friend used yellow blood salt (Potassium hexacyanoferrate(II) trihydrate)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_ferrocyanideHe heated the frizzen in a burner flame (temperature about 800 degrees Celsius) and repeatedly sprinkled salt on the surface of the frizzen.
Then he spent the hardening.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Andrey,
That is one of the compounds in Kasenit. Let me repeat, there are no short cuts to correctly and deeply case hardening a frizzen. The stuff your friend used, unless he packed the frizzen in it and heated for several hours will only have a very shallow hard surface. Unless the actual steel in the frizzen is medium to high carbon so it through hardened in your hardening process, the skin of hardened steel provided by the cyanoferrate will only last a short time.

dave

 

[Andrey22]

That is one of the compounds in Kasenit. Let me repeat, there are no short cuts to correctly and deeply case hardening a frizzen. The stuff your friend used, unless he packed the frizzen in it and heated for several hours will only have a very shallow hard surface. Unless the actual steel in the frizzen is medium to high carbon so it through hardened in your hardening process, the skin of hardened steel provided by the cyanoferrate will only last a short time.

I hope that there will be enough tempering for a long time. If anything I will do it myself again heat treatment.

 

[Intosomthin]

I have several access heritage northwest trade rifles. You have too pull breech plug, notch it and drill vent, i dun it with a hand drill and dremel, so cant be that dificult? Work fine other than locks aint best...

 

[Professor flintlock]

I had luck on one of those locks with wrap it in leather put it in a soup can .Then put it in a hot hard wood (beech or white oak) 2 hours or so . Make sure to keep it down in the hot center of coals. Pull it out and drop it in a bucket of cold water. When cool re install the frozen and voulla. A sparking frozen. Oh yeah bend the top of the soup can over and crunch it shut with big channel locks. Good luck it works.

I would think the enclosed tin route would bring about a violent explosion of steam .Even sudden plunging into cold water need s be done length ways lest it warp the lock plate . But the cooking in bone horn leather ect charred is sound.
Rudyard

Just the frizzen vet's cooked.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I had luck on one of those locks with wrap it in leather put it in a soup can .Then put it in a hot hard wood (beech or white oak) 2 hours or so . Make sure to keep it down in the hot center of coals. Pull it out and drop it in a bucket of cold water. When cool re install the frozen and voulla. A sparking frozen. Oh yeah bend the top of the soup can over and crunch it shut with big channel locks. Good luck it works.

Yeah that's the YouTube method of adding carbon to a frizzen...,
It's sophistry....

It works because there is enough carbon in the steel already. The leather-in-the-can doesn't add carbon. HECK the leather is burned off in a matter of minutes, and long before the frizzen metal has gotten to a temperature to accept carbon molecules. .

What has happened is that the frizzen itself wasn't properly heated in India the first time, probably torch-heated on the face of frizzen, and then improperly quenched. So that the face of the frizzen is only just hard enough to give some sparks while still being a little soft. That wears quickly away, and you get to softer steel and zilch results from then on..., until you heat the whole part and quench it quickly. (I SERIOUSLY doubt that they are using any sort of carbon additive for the frizzen faces as they produce the locks in India.) In fact in at least one of the videos the frizzen they are doing it too is a Pedersoli, not India origin frizzen.

I have re-hardened about a dozen India origin frizzens. All but a pair were done with Kasenit, because I could not be sure just how much carbon was in the frizzens, so wanted to be certain of results. The other two were at rather remote historic sites. All I had was a hardwood fire, a couple lads with blow-pokers, the frizzens, some "tongs" I made out of a pair of pliers with wooden extensions of the handles, and a bucket of water. I got them both yellow hot, and then quenched them. They've been working ever since. I figured either there was enough carbon or it wouldn't work, but they weren't sparking anyway so...,

LD

 

[Andrey22]

Making a new top jaw screw.

 

[Andrey22]

Finished new top jaw screw.

 

[Flintandsteel]

While I TOTALLY admire your work, I really don’t get WHY you’d want to do this. Maybe someone told you.....lIt can’t be done? Going to prove them wrong? When you’re done, you’ll have a well built lock out of questionable materials.
After a hundred hours of your time, and what ever the lock cost, you could probably buy a top of the line lock of your choosing, and maybe a gun to put it on.
I understand taking a challenge, just not this one.

 

[Zonie]

Some craftsmen just enjoy making things.
When it's a hobby, the time spent means nothing. The only thing that counts is ending up with something the builder can be proud of.

 

[JCKelly]

Just keep that lock non-functional . Best change you can make to this gun is to weld the touch hole shut.
If you want a muzzle loading gun that will probably not remove various body parts, buy Pedersoli or Traditions (formerly CVA).
Forget India. You may use the $$$ you saved on various prosthetics, or a cane & nice well-trained dog.

 

[Sidney Smith]

I doubt this guy is going to listen to reason. The continual update photos is proof of that.

All I can say is; I hope this guy has the common sense to not attempt to fire this gun. He may get one or two shots before it lets go in a place he wasn't expecting, and blows half his face off, or worse injures some innocent bystander.

Some people though just wont listen to reason. I think the OP is such an individual. Sadly the only way these types will learn, is the hard way.