The Lead Ring

[prowler]

Rust T Frizzen is dead on. I have a Parker-Hale mould that was shipped with my P-H '58 when it was new. It produces a .575 minie with a thick skirt. It weighs in at 560 grains. There is no way to load a .577 into a P-H without a big hammer. :nono:

 

[Zonie]

Speaking of big hammers, years ago when I bought my (used) ARMI JAGER Zouave it came with a box of .58 caliber Hornady Great Plains Maxi-bullets.

My first time shooting this gun I loaded 70 grains of FFg and then inserted the pre lubed Maxi into the clean unfired bore.
Imagine my surprise when the bullet stopped 12 inches down the bore! With brute force I managed to get it down another 12 inches. I had to use a 16 oz hammer on my steel ramrod to get it down to the powder.
I would offer to give those bullets to one of you members but I was so P.O.'ed I melted them all down and made roundballs out of them.

By the way, the .577 Minie's work fine in that gun.

 

[Coot]

Hooray! Another P-H shooter and we all shoot .575 minies!

I think that part of the problem with what we are discussing is that if a round for the Enfield is called a 577 minie, what that really means is that it is a minie for the Enfield .577 bore and NOT the Springfield .580 bore. The actual diameter (not the nominal size) is .575. As posted before, my Lyman 213-575 actually produces a .576 minie and I swage them down to .575 to use in the P-H Enfield. Think of lumber - what we call a 2x4 is actually 1.5 x 3.5.

 

[Coot]

What is creating confusion here is mixing apples and oranges. The original post concerns military muskets and field (reenactor) conditions. Information relating to slug guns, benchrest shooting, cleaning between shots, etc. is not germane to the lead ring question concerning reenactor shooting.

To try to return to the actual topic, I ask that we all answer the question that was posted. My response is:

After a couple thousand of live rounds, I have never found a lead ring to have to remove from my bore. I have only recovered a small fraction of the minies fired but none seemed to be missing the skirt. I have always used sized and well lubed minies. Has anyone personally experienced or seen first hand a lead ring issue?

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The Parker-Hale specific mold is the one I referred to a few posts ago. It does produce a .575 Minie.

 

[TheBaldYankee]

Thank You Coot.

I don't want to sound rude, because I appreciate all of this discussion, but there seems to a love affiar going on with Parker Hale Enfields.

I've heard that they are fine fire arms, however, my concern is a lead ring breaking off in my Armi Sport '61 Springfield, and if this happens how hard it is to remove it.

Another question would be... What would the recomended powder charge be? Last time I shot live I used 60 grains of FFG powder. The accuracy wasn't the best, but it was my first time shooting any firearm.

 

[jdstrang]

... my concern is a lead ring breaking off in my Armi Sport '61 Springfield, and if this happens how hard it is to remove it.

Another question would be... What would the recomended powder charge be?
...

Question the First: If you shoot only well-cast minies with no creases, seams or gaps in the bases, then the chances of "blowing" a ring are minimal to non-existent.

The best way to check is to remove the breech plug and visually examine the breech. This is not a job for a pipe wrench and a steel-jawed vise. There is a special wrench designed specifically for breech plug removal, and you need a padded (copper-jawed) vise as well. Also, the breech plug and bolster area is (or should be) indexed. If it is not, then index it before you remove it. The plug, when extracted, may be wrapped with Teflon tape if you wish to ease in future removal, but it HAS to be returned to the index mark. If you are not equipped to do this job and cannot rest until you know, then find a black powder gunsmith to do it for you. It ain't rocket science, but it does need to be done correctly.

If by odd chance you discover there is a ring in there, it is easy to reach in with any hooked device (crochet hook?), or dowel, or any other convenient prod, and remove it. Such things are rare, but they do happen.

Question the Second: Many, if not most, people who shoot these rifles for accuracy find that, all other things being equal (your skills, etc.), a charge of 45 grains of 3f, give or take a couple grains, under a Lyman Old Style 575213 minie can deliver sub-two-inch groups at 50 yards and sub-four-inch groups at 100, both offhand. Some experimentation is required to determine your rifle's exact taste, but that's the dining room. That charge, BTW, will as well send to his eternal rest about any whitetail buck on the North American continent.

 

[Zonie]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you folks have ever had the "dreaded lead ring" break off and remain in your rifled muskets bore?

I'm not talking about "blown Minie' skirts which happens as the skirt passes out of the muzzle. I'm talking about a separated piece of lead left in the bore.
I've shot my .58's many times and I never had this happen and until now, I didn't even know there was a concern about it.

Is this "dreaded lead ring" something that was just fostered off on TheBaldYankee by some of his snickering friends or does it sometimes happen?

 

[ayetter2003]

when I did civil war reenacting i had 2 of the then new Armi Sport 1842s. one for hunting and shooting the other for blank fireing. call it over due caution but I wanted to eliminate the chance of fireing a live round off at an event. have seen ramrods fired though(leave them in camp fellas) thou this is very rare. As for rings in the barrel has never happened to me with either an original 61 or the repro I had. I do cast my own thou so I never fire those poorly cast ones you get from sutlers or Dixie Gun Works.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

When I started shooting rifle-muskets, there were no reproductions available, so we used originals. When the repros became available we used them--Springfield and Enfield alike. I have used store bought Minies and home-mades by the thousands and in all these different firearms and using all these different projectiles I have never had a lead ring left in the barrel. Never had a Minie move off the powder charge either. And I don't know of anyone who has ever experienced either problem.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

What lube were you using and how much did you use? This can make a huge difference in accuracy as can consistent quality of the Minies themselves. I have found that heavier Minies tend to be more accurate and use .577" 560 grain Minies myself. (In my Springfield)

 

[jdstrang]

Zonie:

In a dozen years of skirmishing, I've had first-hand knowledge of exactly one. A guy on our team who (a) casts crappy boolits and (b) can't seem to thoroughly clean his gun, all of a sudden couldn't get it to go off. Our armorer pulled his breech plug, and there was the bottom ring of a minie that apparently had been down in the crud for some time - along with Judge Crater and Amelia Earhart.

I maintain that if you insert only well-moulded minies - no cracks, blemishes, gaps or other apparent flaws - they will leave the muzzle in one piece, dragging their skirts behind them. Where they go from there depends largely on the trigger-tender. :cursing:

The one serious re-enacting wounding injury that comes immediately to mind, of course, involved a revolver, not a longarm. Recall 3-4 years ago, when the fellow flew over from France to take part in a Gettysburg-related recreation and borrowed a revolver from a stateside friend? And a ball apparently was lodged in the barrel from a previous attempt at firing?

The result was a re-enactor shot in the neck, thank God not fatally. That's why (a) I don't re-enact, (b) I believe pointing guns in the general direction of folks you don't want to kill remains a bad idea, and (c) the previously mentioned sentiments towards not using a live-fire gun for re-enacting. :nono:

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Papa, it was at the 130th Gettysburg reenactment and the revolver was flat out loaded, no bullet stuck in the barrel, there were six in the cylinder covered, of course, with grease. The revolver was borrowed from a third party and loaned to the French reenactor by the borrower. In my opinion (for what thats worth) three people were at fault:

(1) The owner of the revolver who loaded it and "forgot" - an obvious half-wit.
(2) The guy who borrowed it and was too stupid to question what it was loaded with.
(3) The French visitor who had never fired a BP revolver and didn't know enough to ask the right questions, he just assumed that it was safe.

I was there but didn't hear about the incident until I got home. A sad event and the guy who was shot was very lucky.

Many reenactors, sadly, are not in the least bit knowledgeable about firearms and haven't a clue about firearms safety. I was a reenactor with the Stonewall Brigade for over 20 years and a shooter for almost 50 and it amazes me what I have seen. People haven't got a clue that even a blank load can be dangerous if fired at under ten yards. In supervised reenactments, the standard minimum distance for action is twenty yards but I'm always an early casualty not wanting to close to under 25 or 30 yards. Some people just don't use good sense....

 

[TheBaldYankee]

What lube were you using and how much did you use? This can make a huge difference in accuracy as can consistent quality of the Minies themselves. I have found that heavier Minies tend to be more accurate and use .577" 560 grain Minies myself. (In my Springfield)

I used bore butter to lube the bullets. I rubbed a liberal amount around the rings. If there's a better way, I'm certianly iterested to learn it.

Thanks for the great replies everyone. The lead ring is a huge concern in reenacting, but it seems from talking to you live shooters that it occurs far less them folks make out.