the myth of the "unreliable flintlock"

[M. De Land]

Well, I guess there is just no way with words to describe what only experience can teach in this part of the world and with these critters. A flint lock with no back up would get you killed sooner or later if you kept messing with them. If they come I don't think you could get a shot off let alone stop them. One has to see it for themselves to believe how fast they can move.
I almost got nailed while on a duck trip this year and hadn't even taken my gun out of the car. Some one had dumped a bunch of wild game scraps in the brush where we park and unload our canoe. Sow and two cubs walked right under my nose in the water line and she didn't catch my sent. I couldn't have been more then 20 feet from here before I heard her in the water. I quietly backed up out of the alders and as I was a bit higher than the bears in the water and got in the car on the passenger side, quietly closing the door and trying to get my pardner back inside.
My hunting pardner Chris didn't see her either until she was almost up with us. Boy were his eyes wide and I imagine so were mine as he got back in the car and quietly closed the door.
We couldn't figure out why the sow and cubs where in the water and just as we started the car and began to move ahead,a boar walked out in front of us perhaps 50 yards up the drive. He had run the sow and cubs off the meat scraps and she took them into the water to keep him form killing them.
It was quite a high adrenalin drama there for a bit.
The wind direction and noise of her walking in the water was all that saved us because she was definitely keyed up from the boar being around. Dumbest thing I ever did trying to get a close look at some brown bears I think. I still thought she was in the middle of the pond where I first saw them. It was a real squeaker. MD

 

[Black Hand]

For it is clear you have no experience with this kind of weather or the bears that live in it, to say such things. MD

I live and hunt in Montana (and have for over 20 years). Last I checked, the state was full of Black bears and Grizzly bears as well as white-outs, sideways snow, torrential rain and desert heat. I still hunt with a flinter...

 

[kingsax26]

Ok so i read every post on this thread and i Feel compelled to add my 2 cents to the pot. And ive concluded this: EVERYONE IS RIGHT! But thats only because we all have formulated our opinins based on our own experiences and actions....Ive been into the flintlock scene for ohhh, about 2 whole months...and i ahve all the experience and wisdom that 2 months can offer. I can say however, that im still learning....My rifle still needs work, its hangfires, slow ignition after the first few shots..etc etc..but thats part of the learning curve.... These people at the range in our eyes may be wrong, but in there own mind they are god and know all about these things even if theyve never handled one. So ive discivered the best thing to do is to smile, nod and keep shooting :v ...oh and silently cursing them doesnt hurt either

 

[Snakebite]

When all things are right, the flintlock is quite reliable. However, the flintlock is prone to more problems than a caplock. Dull flint, damp powder in pan, plugged flash channel, etc. These things are why the flintlock was replaced by the caplock. Over all, the caplock is more reliable than the flintlock. However, all this does not mean that a flintlock is not reliable. If the shooter does his thing and takes care to keep a sharp flint, dry powder in the pan and a clear flash channel, not to mention a good frizzen, the flintlock will go bang just as often as a caplock. It just requires a bit more attention. I love my flintlocks.

I have to agree with Bill. If you do everything right with either rifle, they are both reliable. I just think there are more things to look after on a flinter. It's just part of it.

 

[Vaino]

Amen!.... :dead:

 

[DUSTY 14]

western washington state. if you do not want to hunt in the rain then it is july or august and you are probably poaching. we get a lot of light rain with wind here. flint/cap/modern i just thank god for goretex

 

[zimmerstutzen]

It is kind of fun going to a public range, setting up to shoot and placing a target, listening to the nonsense and then that momentary silence when they see a tight group at 100 yds during cease fire for a target check.

An old gunsmith and I frequently ran into each other at a public range, and a new guy with his scoped super mag showed up to shoot. Out of the blue the gun smith starts bad mouthing my gun and it's accuracy to this stranger with the modern gun and goads me into a match with the modern gun. Gunsmith coaxes us into putting $20.00 on it. About this time he winks at me and I realize what is coming. He says "go ahead Daniel Boone, you shoot first", so I did. Got a 9 on the hundred yard rifle target. darn good for offhand Then Mr. Modern bolt action nestles down on the bench to take his shot, and the Gunsmith, says "Whoa, you got to take the scope off, stand up and shoot like a man." Mr. Modern was so flustered he left. The gunsmith picks up the $20 and hands me $10, says "this is your cut."

 

[M. De Land]

Like I said, you have no experience with this weather or these bears! MD

 

[KABAR2]

There are a lot of gun myths out there that "everybody knows" :stir: You can hear a lot of this at any big box sporting goods store from folks behind the counter.

1)Flintlocks are undependable and won't work in the rain
Keep it coverd with a peice of blanket or some leather and it will work when needed, did one reinactment in the 80's in the pouring rain fired every time....
2)Brown Bess (all smoothbores) are inaccurate
stand at 100 yards and let me shoot at you and then say that.... if you are still able...
3)Roundballs are inaccurate only sabotted bullets will work
I refer you to # 2
4)Blackpowder is unstable and dangerous and static electricity will set it off
Then why does the manufacture sell it in bulk in 25 pound plastic bags?
5)Muzzleloaders with roundball don't have the power kill deer or other big game
So the frontersman just used their bowie to kill bears with?
6)Muzzleloaders with the newer explosives don't require cleaning after shooting
Ummm.... I'm sure you can rely on that.....
7)You need a scope to shoot accurately
Tell that to the British generals who were shot dead during the Revolution at 300 yard.....

And there are more.

Many Klatch

I have had this discussion on one or two occians... nobody ever wanted to take up the "let me shoot at you at 100 yards"....... seems they were not that firm in their beliefs.....

 

[Black Hand]

Like I said, you have no experience with this weather or these bears! MD

Glad you know so much about me.... :idunno:

 

[FishDFly]

Why do folks play one upmanship with each other who do not know each other and what each has experienced?

 

[M. De Land]

Because this kind of thinking will get you maimed or killed and it's worth taking some heat to try and inform people. Wither or not they will listen is another matter.
No different than warning folks about unsafe shooting practices. MD

 

[Stumpkiller]

Perhaps you should be more aware of your environment.

It may well be that you are sensible not to fully trust a weapon you are unsuccessful with.

But look around. You are in a traditional muzzleloading forum. I hope you are more aware of bears when you wander through their haunts. ;-)

 

[Moose Guide]

I think you need to remember that the population of grizzlies in Montana is huge, especialy in the costal areas where they feast on the abundant salmon runs... oops, that might be Alaska! I was charged by a sow with cubs, and if I had taken my hawken like I wanted to, I would have never gotten that second shot in! She charged from 30 yds and was dead at 12 yds less than 4 seconds later! I love hunting with my hawken but if there is any chance of meeting a grizz, I take something a mite more stout, we can't carry handguns here.

 

[Hawgeye]

I don't know about MD, but I'm fairly aware of my surroundings here and confident in my abilities in the brush. Been here 45 years, been muzzleloading for 40. In all that time I've never once been tempted to challenge a top of the food chain, 10 to 12 foot, 1200 lb brown bear with a poor disposition in his back yard using a flinter or caplock. Has nothing to do with reliability, it has to do with energy on flesh and bone and that is better accomplished IMHO with large centerfire cartridges. Having said that, my flinter shoots as reliably as my caplocks when I do my part.

 

[Hawgeye]

I don't know about MD, but I'm fairly aware of my surroundings here and confident in my abilities in the brush. Been here 45 years, been muzzleloading for 40. In all that time I've never once been tempted to challenge a top of the food chain, 10 to 12 foot, 1200 lb brown bear with a poor disposition in his back yard using a flinter or caplock. Has nothing to do with reliability, it has to do with energy on flesh and bone and that is better accomplished IMHO with large centerfire cartridges. Having said that, my flinter shoots as reliably as my caplocks when I do my part. Sorry about the double post.

 

[M. De Land]

You nailed it , being aware or your environment. Any one who would use a flintlock in these conditions is not aware and is the point I'm trying apparently in vain to make.
Getting back to the reliability topic of your flint lock with every precaution you mention and I'm aware of, waxed cow's knees , plastic bags or what ever, I do not believe "You" could reliably make it work every time in these extreme weather conditions I am referring to. And making it work every time is paramount! Now add to that removal of cows knee or some other contraption which would be doubtful to work in this environment and you have the making of a disaster.
There just is no time in a bear fight to do all that would be required to get a single shot off. And even if you did would probably not stop them before they got to you.
So, reliability of a flintlock would be personified in the above scenario and that is what we are talking about. My opinion based on 40 years of living in their back yard and many personal experiences with them and hunting in the Aleutian chain weather, is that a flint lock would be woefully inadequate and a cap lock would be little better. MD

 

[Matt85]

can we get off the bear topic? it seems like all your saying is modern guns are better then muzzleloaders and im pretty sure we already know that.

matchlock > gonne
flintlock > matchlock
caplock > flintlock
centerfire > caplock

this is old news and has nothing to do with whether or not the flintlock is reliable. all of the firearm types above are reliable in normal operating conditions. the onley one that could be called 99.9% in ALL situations is the centerfire and thats cause the powder is sealed.

-matt

 

[mtmshieldshotmail.com]

I think there are plenty of locks available that could be described as "unreliable," or "needy" at best. With respect to such locks, unreliability is not a "myth," especially in the hands of someone who doesn't have the knowledge base to see lock geometry or hardening problems.
In fact, if there were any FLs at that gun show, many of them probably had such locks.

Regards,
Mike

 

[kopfjaeger]

I've hunted with flintlocks since 1975 and killed quite a few deer with them. People who think flintlocks are unreliable are either to lazy or to stupid to know how to use one properly. Most of these people are focused more on killing game than how they kill game. They will never understand the love we have for a well made flintlock firearm.

I also hunt with traditional recurve bows since 1972 and wooden arrows that I make myself. When ever I went to a 3D archery shoot I always had someone tell me my bow was a handicap for hunting, or do you really think you can kill game with that. After a few times of hearing this I started carrying pictures of the bucks, elks, black bear, wild boars, and turkeys I've killed with my recurves. When ever one of the know it all clan would open their mouths I'd pull out the pictures. That use to shut them up pretty quick. Way to many know it alls in this world.