The talent, do you have it? Find out?

[Nativearizonan]

I was looking at a Belgian musket just the other day, one that may well have served it's purpose on the battlefield years ago. The wood to metal fit was fine, but other than that it was a crude thing to behold, with rasp marks still evident on the wood, and metal surfaces that were obviously finished to a minimal level. The folks that worked on guns like that had a well learned talent to turn guns our that were functional, but they did it quickly and efficiently. My point being that not all guns are the kind that make you walk across the room to stare and drool, and not all gun makers make those artistic treasures.

Building a gun is a learning experience for anyone who has built less than several dozen of them. If one has the desire to attempt it, they should do so. Asking "dumb" beginner questions is a necessary part of learning anything. Those afraid to ask are those who will not learn. Telling someone "You'll never get there because you have to ask questions like that", is not doing anyone a service. Some people build guns, especially a first gun, because they look at it as saving a few bucks, and that is a fine reason; the big plus is that it adds an extension to the enjoyment of the muzzleloading experience, no matter what level of expertise you are at.

If you want to own something made by a real master, either cough up the big bucks or expect to spend a lifetime learning and executing an ancient craft. Few people really have the need to own such a masterpiece, though, so few people do either. It is good to remember outstanding period gunsmiths did not usually spend their time trapping beaver, nor did great hunters spend their time carving excised roccoco flowers on gun butts.

 

[Kansas Jake]

True, and I try a lot of things. My philosophy on mechanical things is someone put it together, so I should be able to take it apart and repair it. I've done a lot of that in the old car hobby. I also enjoy working on firearms, both muzzleloaders and unmentionables. Given that I know my skills and drive will never rise to the level of a master gun builder. And at my age, if I had the inclination, I still probably don't have the talent or enough years ahead to develop the ability.

 

[Black Hand]

In this hobby, I've taught myself numerous things that I decided I wanted to know and as a result, I've gathered much first-hand experience on what to do or not do. I wouldn't trade the experience for anything, as I view knowledge as the best pay-off.

 

[kurts]

Talent to me is starting with a 3 ton block of granite and ending up with a stature

 

[kansas_volunteer]

Scanning through these discussions of talent, the need for both desire and persistence to get where you want to go, and thoughts about drawing it seems to me a key idea about gun building has been missed.

Building a muzzleloading gun is of all the arts sculpture. It's a three dimensional art. One needs to be able to see in his minds eye the back side of a gun as well as the front, or bottom when working on the top and so forth. Building kits may help, but building guns from scratch helps more. However, building guns from scratch, and building enough of them to develop an ability to see the work 360 degrees and lengthwise all at the same time is a darned expensive way to devlope what is ordinarily called talent.

I submit the ability to sculpt can be developed by working in modeling clay, soap carving or some other basic material as one develops the ability to make the hands do what the mind sees. one side of a butt stock could be modeled from a slab of modeling clay until the shape is right. It could be carved, too. Practice stocks could be made of basswood, or some other wood easy to carve. Screw thing up doing that; apply Bondo and take things back to where they were before you screwed up and carve it over again. Maybe when you get your basswood and Bondo stock the way you want it then maybe you could use it as a pattern to guide you when working if expensive wood.

 

[rich pierce]

So back to the original question, which was "do you have the talent?"

Yes I can build rifles and make all the small parts from scratch- thimbles, sights, sideplates, patchboxes, buttplates from sheet brass, nosecaps, simple triggers, trigger plates, and so on. I can carve decently but struggle with engraving. Just don't do enough of it to get good. I don't have problems with shaping a longrifle but lacking a drill press, I find drilling for bolts and pins is an adventure.

 

[eggwelder]

I don't have problems with shaping a longrifle but lacking a drill press, I find drilling for bolts and pins is an adventure.

look into boat building books and magazines on line for those answers. you`ll see examples of how to do that but on a larger scale

 

[rich pierce]

Oh I have three gizmos and such but none are as precise as a drill press and fence. Was just cataloging I can and do make guns from blanks.

 

[54ball]

So back to the original question, which was "do you have the talent?"

Yes I can build rifles and make all the small parts from scratch- thimbles, sights, sideplates, patchboxes, buttplates from sheet brass, nosecaps, simple triggers, trigger plates, and so on. I can carve decently but struggle with engraving. Just don't do enough of it to get good. I don't have problems with shaping a longrifle but lacking a drill press, I find drilling for bolts and pins is an adventure.

Rich,
First off let me say I admire and enjoy your work. Your early period rifle you finished a while back is as good as it gets IMHO....very authentic.

You bring up a good point. There are many skill sets required to build a rifle. One can excel in the "art" but struggle in the mechanics.

Part of the talent in my opinion is overcoming challenges. It is being able to make the best of what you have. It's not the mistake, it's the recovery.

You mentioned drilling....sounds so simple but it's not, especially when the wood and metal interface at an angle.

In another post you mentioned gizmos and jigs to aid in drilling.
What do you do when these fail or just will not work for the application?

I just lay it out.....draw some lines to help my aim. Then I drill it. Sometimes from both sides until I meet.....just depends....Where the metal meets at an angle...well you got to do different things. It's done Carefully but with confidence. As you say it is an adventure.

What I want to accomplish with this thread is to educate and inform. A good campfire conversation......

As far as talent....it can be a double edged sword. Sometimes those with the most talent get bored too easily.

Here' s what I think is required....

Patience
Attention
Yearning
Willingness to learn
Confidence....Maybe as important as Patience
The Eye
Ad lib
High standard for your work
Knowing when enough is enough
The feel
Lay out on paper wood and most important....your head
Getting your tools to do what your mind wants them too....

Most of this can be learned. A lot of it comes natural to me but not all of it.

Building a rifle is not Brain surgery, but sometimes it can be close. :wink:

In the end a rifle is a utilitarian tool. Sometimes I think we shake our heads and ra-hump ra-hump too much about the art. I think it is good for a new builder not to forget about the rifle.....It's just a rifle.

I also said..Find Out.
How do you do that?

 

[Hipshot]

So if you are thinking about building.....do you have the talent? Be honest with yourself.

This is something to find out before a thousand dollars or more is spent on a parts set.


I think this is very good advice for someone like me. Before I spend $1200+ on a quality parts kit, only to turn it into a $400 rifle I would need to know that at least I had the basic skills to turn out a gun I wasn't too ashamed to show anyone.
I sometimes see very inexpensive low end rifle kits at gun shows and I think I would start there and build my confidence . But then, that's just me. Sixty nine years of just jumping in with both feet has taught me something,,,, Humility :rotf:

 

[fleener]

my first kit gun was a JB Hawken rifle from TOW. I bought the nicest piece of wood that they had for that rifle.

Figured I might not ever build another gun, might as well spend the time on a nice piece than a plain one. Plus the nice wood hides my mistakes to those that are not used to looking for flaws.

Rifle turned out well.

Fleener

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
You know, I did not start out with much "talent". I had wood and metal skills I learned from my Dad, but no special genius for the work. I just worked at it, did my research, spent time looking at originals and the good work of others, read lots of books, carved for practice, engraved for practice, made parts that failed and then worked. I did this not with any mystical support or inspiration. I did it with hard work. The secret is, I put in the time.

dave

 

[Chowmif16]

Hi,
You know, I did not start out with much "talent". I had wood and metal skills I learned from my Dad, but no special genius for the work. I just worked at it, did my research, spent time looking at originals and the good work of others, read lots of books, carved for practice, engraved for practice, made parts that failed and then worked. I did this not with any mystical support or inspiration. I did it with hard work. The secret is, I put in the time.



dave

That is exactly right, and what I failed to express well in my first post a few days ago.

I started this adventure with nearly zero woodworking skills, and zero metalworking skills, but a strong desire to learn.

Through practice and healthy self criticism, my skills are developing, but still at an apprentice level. That's okay for now. I know I can do better, because I constantly seek out advice and techniques and do my best to learn.

That is what is required, not anything else.

Cheers,
Chowmi.

 

[Cruzatte]

Hi,
....I did it with hard work. The secret is, I put in the time.

dave

Bingo!

 

[Gustavo Hoefs]

I like what you are saying ! Mostly because I agree with you ! :grin: My music teacher used to say talent is 99% persperation and 1% inspiration. Another example, Most people don't realize Pablo Picasso had the skills to draw with the precision of a photograph the style he chose to create his art work in was much different. IMHO his talent may have been in expressing and creating an emotional response to the work in way previously not considered. what we do not understand is thought of as magic , what we can understand is science

 

[Vaino]

Mechanical skills can be learned but your artistry originates w/ your innate talent which is then further developed and refined by hard work. But, w/o the innate talent, trying to learn artistry would be very, very difficult if it's even at all possible. We should also define artistry....it's way above the level that the average person ever could achieve.

Many artists don't realize that their artistry talent is innate because they want to credit their hardwork and perseverance for their accomplishments. If ONLY hard work and persevence were responsible for their artistry , the world should be full of Rembrandts and Michaelangelos which isn't the case.

The fact is that all people are NOT born w/ equal talents.

Again I mention my school buddy who was already an artist at the age of 12 and never took a lesson. What enabled him to draw so artisticly....innate talent.

Some people work hard and persevere because of a latent innate talent that's observed to be above average by themselves or by others at some time in their life. We always like to do something that we do well.....that's the incentive.

I am not pooh poohing perseverance and hard work in achieving skills and developing innate talent, but asre artistry, there has to be something to start w/.....namely innate talent.....Fred

 

[dave_person]

Hi Fred,
Well in my case I have 2 talents. I have a talent for learning and a talent for not being afraid to attempt to do challenging things. That is about it.

dave

 

[Vaino]

I agree w/ you, but somewhere in your makeup there's an innate art talent.....Fred

 

[Col. Batguano]

You are also mercilessly critical of your own work, and do not "settle". In your vast experience and research before you take on a project, your natural inquisitiveness translates to; "why is this this way", which lets you understand it and express yourself so tastefully in the diversity of things you've done. Even when you took on a project like the Bess conversion that was handicapped from the start by improper parts and inadequate wood, you managed to make a silk purse from a sow's ear. And, as importantly, you seem to enjoy the whole learning and creative process.

 

[nhmoose]

my first kit gun was a JB Hawken rifle from TOW. I bought the nicest piece of wood that they had for that rifle.

Figured I might not ever build another gun, might as well spend the time on a nice piece than a plain one. Plus the nice wood hides my mistakes to those that are not used to looking for flaws.

Rifle turned out well.

Fleener

:hatsoff: