Then and Now

[Gene L]

I'm fairly new to flintlocks but an ol' timer for ML. I have seen exactly two period flintlocks; one plain, the other a Golden Age original, which I posted pictures of some time ago.

I believe modern ML rifles are the best they've ever been...by "best" I mean the best quality. You can get whatever you're willing to pay for, from a plain, "hardwood" stock rifle to a curly maple engraved and carved rifle, flint and I suppose caplocks, although I've never seen one.

The best thing is in modern rifles IMO is the standardized calibers. No longer .34 calibers, .43, and so on. Which means you can get a mold in an almost endless variety of calibers and one not custom made for your particular rifle.

The more I see of carved and decorated flints, the more I believe we're now in a Second Golden Age. An artistic era by makers enhanced by the Machine Age.

We're living in great times. I don't know how much a rifle (plain) cost in adjusted dollars from back then, but now they're affordable. And I doubt powder has ever been better.

 

[Wes/Tex]

You're right on all that. From an ease of use standpoint, I've lived long enough to see flintlocks go from constant job to total enjoyment. There is an unbelievable amount of raw talent out there now for making guns as fine as any time in history. At the top end, it's my opinion that though the talent is available, the man hours necessary to copy some of the finest guns is hard to find in this day and time. I have a close friend who builds wheel lock guns from scratch...excepting barrels which Dennis feels safer using modern available ones. Every other last little screw, spring or whatsit he makes by hand. Going beyond that, the U.S.S. Texas, U.S.S. San Jacinto and U.S.S. Fort Worth all carry aboard flintlock blunderbuss with spring bayonets...never know when "repel boarders" might become necessary. All thanks to Dennis! :wink: :haha: There's a lot of talent and ability out there. Me, I can turn $1,500 worth of parts into a $300 gun! :rotf:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I looked up the average monthly wage for the country per month, and several sites were very similar, or an average of $2850 per month.

According to the records from George Morgan's store as detailed in Mark Baker's Sons of a Trackless Forest, hunters for Morgan could be employed for £3 to £7 per month, and a new rifle cost £7.10. So if you were very good at hunting, your rifle cost you a month’s pay, and if you were untried as a hunter, it cost you 2.4 month’s pay.

So it seems that the cost of the hand built rifle hasn't changed all that much..., perhaps it's actually a little bit cheaper?...., no maybe not.

LD

 

[azmntman]

So it seems that the cost of the hand built rifle hasn't changed all that much..., perhaps it's actually a little bit cheaper?...., no maybe not.

Ya, gotta consider they didnt have as much "necessity" to give up back then to get a nice rifle which was a true NECESSITY! We have to consider no take out, no cable, no internet :shocked2: , smaller or no car payments, less insurance, turning the lights off and keeping the thermostat reasonable. They had to choose from a much smaller list of items to scrimp on (like savings?), a cheaper pair of boots, self repairing that ol plow instead of a new one etc.

 

[Gene L]

And a "hand built" rifle now means generally a machine built barrel. And a lock, I assume. It seems most of the hand built rifle is in the placement of the lock and the barrel and the furniture and the adornment. Of course, back in the day, I believe that a lot of locks were pre-made but I don't know this. Forging out a lock and filing it down was quite a chore. Making a barrel was quite a chore. Thankfully, we have access to very good sources of boughten components.

 

[Stumpkiller]

A hand built rifle can still be had.

With barrel forged and rifled and a lock built for you - figure $10,000 plus however pretty you want it.

But you'll have a couple years to save up. ;-)

 

[coloradoclyde]

I believe modern ML rifles are the best they've ever been...by "best" I mean the best quality.

Considering gunsmiths of the first "golden age" didn't have the technology to make an aluminum tea pot, and today we have the technology to put men on Mars.....They sure as heck ought to be the best.... :haha:

But!...Best is subjective...and I like the idea of individual calibers and a gun made by the hands of one man using a forge.

 

[azmntman]

If I won the powerball I would seek, purchase and SHOOT an original old flinter from the 1700's. Then might get a custom made. After the original though how much more custom could I get :idunno:

Long list in my head for that fine day! Problem....I dont ever remember to buy a ticket :slap:

 

[coloradoclyde]

If I won the powerball I would........

Commission a dozen rifles from the finest craftsmen....A completely hand build Wallace Gustler type rifle would be first on the list...

There is even a person or two on this forum that I would seek out....

Or maybe I would just start up my own muzzleloader company and give Perdersoli some competition. :hmm:

Dream big.... :haha:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

And a "hand built" rifle now means generally a machine built barrel. And a lock, I assume

Ah but by the "golden age" which was post AWI (if not before the AWI) a lot of rifles were built with imported barrels and locks. Might need rifling, but the builder wasn't forging the barrel.

Charles Wilson Peale wrote in his diary about his having a rifle built:

December 27, 1775, “bought a set of gun mountings 9/.”

January 1, 1776, “attended Mr. Rittenhouse all Day about a Riffle with a Tellescope to it.”

January 2, “Ditto.”

January 3, “Bought a Gun Lock 22/6 I found it faulty & offered the Man 2/6 to take it back but he would not. I bought another at 40/.”

January 5, “a set of Loop to hang up a Gun 6/6, spent in attending & working about my riffle. Threatened to complain to the committee [ Committee of Safety] of Henry ”””””“ who had taken an extortionate price for the Gun Lock on Wednesday last.”

January 6, “attending the man stockg sd. Gun.”


You might note that he's also trying to put a scope on his rifle for accurate shooting. The scope probably had crosshairs, but it ultimately failed since they didn't have eye relief back then and to use the scope it had to be just too close to the eye...OUCH.

LD

 

[Col. Batguano]

You're right in just about every respect except one. While the tools, research resources, shop conditions, and metal quality are the best they've ever been, the big advantage the original makers have on today's builders is wood.

Yeah we can pay bookoo bucks to get a stunning piece of curly maple, but it will probably NOT be OLD GROWTH maple. Likewise with American and European Walnut.

But, I suppose with enough money, just about anything is available. I understand that the big time English and Continental gun makers stock their arms with wood that's reputed to be between 300 and 500 years old.

Around 1650, again starting around 1770, and once more around 1850, we went through a cooling period on the earth, and that resulted in tree growth rings that were closer together. The wood that was available at the time is part of the secret to Stradivarius stringed instruments, as well as his secret finish, that nobody has been able to figure out yet.

 

[Elnathan]

The BEST flintlocks being produced today are probably better than anything made back then.

Most of use aren't shooting the best, though. I don't think that the average today quite measures up to the average back then.

Locks are probably a wash - we have better metallurgy and hole-drilling technology, they had the advantage of specialized and highly skilled labor fitting them together, plus few makers today caseharden the plates and cocks the way they routinely did back them. Not sure that there is much practical difference between a good production modern lock and a decent trade lock then.

Barrels: Modern machining techniques allow for more consistent accuracy. Modern metallurgy provides for much stronger materials. Yay. Instead of these wonderful steels, however, we get barrels made of stuff that isn't anywhere near as tough as clean wrought iron. Boo. Since barrels don't blow up regularly I guess it is OK, though. (Note that when a certain barrelmaker recently introduced a very thin-walled typical of original fowling pieces, they went with chrome-moly steel instead of the stuff from which they usually make their rifle barrels. Apparently they don't trust their normal steel to be as strong as the original wrought iron. :hmm: )

Stocks: As a group, the old guys were a whole lot more skilled in making a stock that fit well, worked well, and looked good, than we are today. Hard to find a clunky original, even though some can be pretty ugly in other ways. Easy to find modern repros with way too much wood on them, though.

So yeah, in one way we are living through a Golden Age. In another way, we aren't quite at their level.

 

[Canute Rex]

I remember reading about an incident at Mount Independence (Vermont) during the AWI. An officer lined up 100 men to fire their muskets to make sure that they were all functional. Three blew up. That would be considered an unacceptable failure rate today.

 

[Gene L]

I remember reading about an incident at Mount Independence (Vermont) during the AWI. An officer lined up 100 men to fire their muskets to make sure that they were all functional. Three blew up. That would be considered an unacceptable failure rate today.

Probably using smokeless powder.

 

[Elnathan]

I remember reading about an incident at Mount Independence (Vermont) during the AWI. An officer lined up 100 men to fire their muskets to make sure that they were all functional. Three blew up. That would be considered an unacceptable failure rate today.

Probably using smokeless powder.

Probably poor maintenance, or just shoddily constructed war-emergency barrels.

We have an advantage that we can bore our barrels out of homogenous billets, so we don't have to worry about bad welds the way they had to then. The actual material we generally use today though, 12L14, has a Charpy (the standard test to strength under impact loading) impact strength of about 15 foot foot pounds, whereas the only figure I've seen for wrought (which I am going to assume is the purest available) was 58 foot pounds, IIRC. For comparison purposes 1137 (what Green Mountain barrels are made from) was around 45 foot pounds, while hardened and tempered 4140 was 112 foot pounds.

Given the record of modern 12L14 barrels not made by Douglas, I wouldn't say that they aren't safe to shoot. Since we are comparing originals to modern replicas, I thought it worthwhile to throw a bit of cold water on the notion that the existence of modern metallurgy automatically means that modern barrels are in every way better than originals.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Why do we assume the gun was the issue?

If a house burns down do we blame it on faulty lumber?

 

[Wes/Tex]

Why do we assume the gun was the issue?

That loose nut behind the butt plate will get you every time! :wink: :haha:

 

[Tom Compton]

Most likely scenario of the 3 musket failures was incorrect loading. Also could have been exasperated by poor maintenance.

I don’t think anything was wrong w Douglas barrels or 12L14. I started in MLing in ”˜73 and got my first Douglas about ”˜76. And still using some from early 80s. Been hunting and target shooting every since then sometimes as many as 10 big events a year and many club shoots. Memphis, Jackson MS and Baton Rouge Longview TX to Brady Texas, Ft Lupton Co, Wyoming and back via Arkansas and Oklahoma. Even a few trips to Friendship. Some of these matches back in the day had as high as 200 shooters ( of course Friendship had many more). The predominant barrel mfg at these was Douglas.

I’ve seen ONE Douglas barrel fail in all that time and millions of rounds fired. Careful study of that instance revealed the gun had been fully loaded then, after an interruption, charged again and then only short started - really long started as the starter was about 12” - then, another interruption. Thankfully there were no injuries.

IMO most claims of failures of reputable shooting products are due to mishandling and being too embarrassed to admit it. Remington paid out a lot of$ and replaced a lot of triggers on model 600s. As I recall a Youth was told to unload a 600 in a moving Jeep. Why was it left loaded when put in the vehicle? The 2 adults in the Jeep were attorneys, one was injured.
TC

 

[Gene L]

Why do we assume the gun was the issue?

If a house burns down do we blame it on faulty lumber?

Not the same with mechanical things. If a auto breaks down continually, you have reason to blame the car.

 

[Gene L]

Speaking of AWI muskets, does anyone know how many were actually made in America? As opposed to British and French ones used by Americans?