therifleshoppe?

[rickystl]

Hmmmm....Everything I've ever received from them has come by UPS. I asked here at work and was told UPS will be working Monday. But even if it arrives by next Friday, I'll be more than happy. Then, all I will have to worry about is if they shipped the right parts. Rick. :hatsoff:

 

[rickystl]

OK. Got some time here. Here are a couple things my collector friend told me while visiting TRS recently. Keep in mind he has visited numerous times over the past few years and knows the people on a personal level.
NEW CATALOG. There is a new, updated catalog that is near ready to go to the printer. But the lack of funds has kept this on the back-burner. He said that historically, the Catalog itself was one of the largest profit centers for the business. By the way, there are considerably more patterns for stocks and locks that are not in the current catalog.
FINISHED GUNS. I was told that TRS currently has a 4 year backlog of guns that need to be built to completion for customers. And all of these were paid for - IN ADVANCE!! Unfortunately, the advance money was used for other things, so one could plausibly assume that someone will be building guns for the next 4 years - at no profit.
COMPLETE KITS. Apparently, the biggest delay in completing kits are getting barrels and screws made. And, I can believe that. We all know the long delays getting custom barrels. And, of course, the barrel supplier will want to be paid in advance too, which due to limited funds will cause further delays.
GENERAL PARTS ORDERING: As mentioned before: If it's not in stock, don't allow it to be put on back-order. The Foundry is in a neighboring state, and wants paid in advance. So orders for parts - that are NOT in stock - will be sent to the Foundry - as funds become available. Also, there is no accurate way to keep track of of old back-orders that have to be sent to the Foundry. Often a part will come back in stock - even 2 or 3 times - and the oldest order for that part gets misplaced and lost till someone calls and they have to search for it.
COMPLETED LOCKS. I was told they recently lost the guy that was assembling locks. And, during my phone conversation while ordering parts, I was told that there is a MINIMUM of 8-12 weeks for a finished lock. The truth is, they don't know. The lock will be done as time and parts availability become available.

It's my understanding that there are only three people that work there on a regular basis. And their duties include picking up the grand kids from school, etc. if you get the picture. :haha:

I'll add some more on my next post. Rick. :hatsoff:

 

[BrownBear]

They sound like bankers to me. Keep banker hours. Stay in business by playing games with other people's money. Promise anything and hide the fine print on the last page. Keep up the front for their Valued Customers, as they meanwhile put customer interest behind their own. :bull:

 

[Rick Boylan]

:rotf: :idunno: Now try to think positive! If my order ships today, I should have it by Wednesday or Thursday next week. NO! I'm not making any bets. :haha: Rick. :hatsoff:

op: :rotf: :haha: :stir:

 

[jamesthomas]

OK. Got some time here.
NEW CATALOG. There is a new, updated catalog that is near ready to go to the printer. But the lack of funds has kept this on the back-burner. He said that historically, the Catalog itself was one of the largest profit centers for the business. By the way, there are considerably more patterns for stocks and locks that are not in the current catalog.
FINISHED GUNS. I was told that TRS currently has a 4 year backlog of guns that need to be built to completion for customers. And all of these were paid for - IN ADVANCE!! Unfortunately, the advance money was used for other things, so one could plausibly assume that someone will be building guns for the next 4 years - at no profit.
COMPLETE KITS. Apparently, the biggest delay in completing kits are getting barrels and screws made. And, I can believe that. We all know the long delays getting custom barrels. And, of course, the barrel supplier will want to be paid in advance too, which due to limited funds will cause further delays.
GENERAL PARTS ORDERING: As mentioned before: If it's not in stock, don't allow it to be put on back-order. The Foundry is in a neighboring state, and wants paid in advance. So orders for parts - that are NOT in stock - will be sent to the Foundry - as funds become available. Also, there is no accurate way to keep track of of old back-orders that have to be sent to the Foundry. Often a part will come back in stock - even 2 or 3 times - and the oldest order for that part gets misplaced and lost till someone calls and they have to search for it.
COMPLETED LOCKS. I was told they recently lost the guy that was assembling locks. And, during my phone conversation while ordering parts, I was told that there is a MINIMUM of 8-12 weeks for a finished lock. The truth is, they don't know. The lock will be done as time and parts availability become available.

It's my understanding that there are only three people that work there on a regular basis. And their duties include picking up the grand kids from school, etc. if you get the picture. :haha:

I'll add some more on my next post. Rick. :hatsoff:

There is so much wrong here that it's tough to pick out the worse one. First and foremost anyone that gives ALL their money up front for an rifle where no one can give you a definite date for completion is crazy. A down payment, then the balance when THEY call to inform you that your next on the list with a confirmed delivery time is the way it should work. A 4 YEAR back log? :slap: . Somebody is playing games with other peoples money. If I read this and had a rifle on order they would be mailing my money back ASAP(nothing in this world is worth a 2 year wait much less 4 years. :youcrazy: ) Also only 3 people full time? this is B.S. are they too stingy not to hire anybody? not even a book keeper so that orders DON'T get "mis-placed". I'm just amazed I can't believe what I just read!. :surrender:

 

[Alden]

Dude, they stopped everything, EVERYTHING, to fill the order for the National Guards' Newtown Musket, hundreds of pieces, which was remade as a matchlock when it was a snaphaunce originally. I told ya about the 12-year Baker Rifle build. You can't make this stuff up but I still don't think they're intentionally ripping anyone off...

...and then there's John Buck.

 

[rickystl]

Well, I received an email this past Friday from TRS that said that my credit card was charged for the parts that I ordered plus shipping. So I should receive them by the end of this week. Right? :haha:

I also don't believe they are intentionally ripping anyone off. They're simply accepting and accumulating too many back-orders that can't be shipped in a reasonable length of time.

My friend told me there are even parts lying on the edge of the floor that you have to step over while walking through the shop. :haha:

I've always thought that the most valuable asset TRS owns is their Patterns. They should consider selling some of their patterns to other gunsmiths or places like Jim Chambers, etc. That could produce a lot of quick working capital.

Speaking of John Buck: I just mailed him a letter a couple weeks ago looking for an update. He's had $1,000.00 deposit for three (3) years now with no communication what so ever. :idunno:
Rick. :hatsoff:

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

...............

I also don't believe they are intentionally ripping anyone off. They're simply accepting and accumulating too many back-orders that can't be shipped in a reasonable length of time.

Well said on both counts.

...............................

I've always thought that the most valuable asset TRS owns is their Patterns. They should consider selling some of their patterns to other gunsmiths or places like Jim Chambers, etc. That could produce a lot of quick working capital.

Sadly, "quick working capital" for who? The majority of the patterns that TRS has are for locks and other sundries that are not in high demand so no one, not Chambers or anyone else, would be able to make much profit from them. They might make available the lock parts for, say the Spanish Musket, their No. 641, but if only two or three customers want that pattern every 10 years there would be no reason to set up for manufacturing those parts. That is the problem TRS faces every day and why they can't have or need a larger work force. They have patterns for hundreds of parts that there is very little demand for but they have them and when needed, reasonable customers expect a wait. That's all there is to it. If someone wants a gun built from their parts, they should order the parts and have someone else build it, that might speed things up some. But remember, high quality custom work takes time and a wait of 2 to 4 years, even more, is not unusual in the custom gun business whether some unfamiliar with that type of work think it is too much or not. You are getting an almost one of a kind gun, not a factory made repop. You pay and wait accordingly.

 

[kb466]

Well put. I can understand not wanting to put up with the long wait times. But some of us are willing to do so as the end product is thought to be worth the wait, at least in our minds. I am into my third year waiting for a prepaid TRS 1756 Brown Bess parts set. As frustrating as the waiting is, I will continue to do so, because I want the parts. I waited 18 months for my last TRS parts set-- a 1795 Springfield, and it turned out to be well worth it as it will allow me to build the most accurately-configured 1795 out there.
Bill M.

 

[Claude Mathis]

I am into my third year waiting for a prepaid TRS 1756 Brown Bess parts set. As frustrating as the waiting is, I will continue to do so, because I want the parts. I waited 18 months for my last TRS parts set..

It sounds like there aren't any victims here, only willing participants. :wink:

 

[bpd303]

Wonder how many have died waiting on their parts/guns. I don't even buy green bananas any longer.

 

[jamesthomas]

Your order is the one that's probably under the stamping machine at the Foundry and nobody has a clue about where it is.

 

[Rick Boylan]

Your order is the one that's probably under the stamping machine at the Foundry and nobody has a clue about where it is.

op: :hatsoff:

 

[rickystl]

Hi Va. You make some some very good points. Interesting you picked #641 as an example. One of the parts I ordered was the trigger guard for this gun. :haha: And you're right. There is a very limited market for most of these type parts. TRS could probably offer complete kits - especially with a finished lock - for say Long Land Pattern Besses and Charlevilles only, and sell everyone they could make. :idunno:
Which makes me wonder why they originally set out to make so many different patterns in the first place? Maybe it's just so addictive like the rest of this hobby is?
Anyway, I hope my parts show up this week. I already have #614 Lock complete. Then I can order the barrel from TOTW, and send everything off to the gunsmith. I plan on having him build a Spanish style rifle with a Catalan style butt stock. (I know I'm going to hear some grief about the rifled barrel ) Rick :hatsoff:

 

[dave_person]

Hi Folks,
Although the business quirks of TRS are understandable, not all of them are acceptable. First, they should always tell the customer the truth about their order and give a responsible time line. Second, my credit card has always been charged right away by them even though the parts I paid for may not arrive for more than a year. I don't give a damn how small they are, taking (and then spending) my funds entitles me to reasonable customer service and communication, regardless of their need to pay the foundry up front. If they cannot deal with it then their business model is flawed. Indeed, if Ricky's commentary is accurate, their business practices seem very amateurish. I wonder if they view their core business as building complete replicas or kits and their patterns were accumulated to meet that end. Supplying cast parts just became a side business for them as long as they had the patterns. Again, I wonder what they view as their core business?

dave

 

[Claude Mathis]

Second, my credit card has always been charged right away by them even though the parts I paid for may not arrive for more than a year.

According to Visa USA, "a merchant is not permitted to bill ahead of time" except in case of a deposit or down payment that the customer agrees to. MasterCard said in a letter that a merchant can charge you before shipment only if s/he tells you and you agree to "the terms and conditions of the sale."

Violating these rules can cause a vendor to lose their Merchant Account.

American Express allows the merchant to charge your card as soon as you give your account number; but if you receive the bill before the merchandise, call Amex customer service and you don't have to pay while they investigate.

 

[Claude Mathis]

If you used a Debit Card:

It is not illegal for merchants to charge for a product before it has shipped. In general, debit card transactions are governed by the Electronic Funds Transfer Act (EFTA), which does not require debit card issuers to wait until a product has shipped prior to authorizing a transaction from your account. That being said, your debit card provider may have a policy prohibiting the merchant from charging your account before shipment. Visa requires that merchants ship a product prior to charging any Visa debit card.

However, if your order is not delivered, you are guaranteed a refund under the Federal Trade Commission’s Mail or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule, which requires that your order be shipped within the time stated in company advertising or by phone. If no specific time is promised, your order must be shipped within 30 days from the merchant’s receiving a "properly completed order" with your name, address and payment by check, money order or authorization to charge an existing credit account. If the order is not shipped within the promised time, the merchant must notify you of the revised shipping date and give you the option to cancel for a full refund or accept the new shipping date. Since you paid by debit card (this would also apply to cash, check or money order), your refund must be mailed within seven business days. For future reference, had you made the purchase with a credit card, the merchant would be required to credit your account within one billing cycle.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Claude,
Thank you for that information. I was not aware of that. I'll have to read the TRS terms and conditions of sale more closely to see if that is referenced. In every order I've made to TRS, my card was charged long before I received the goods and always before they were actually shipped to me. Thanks Claude.

dave

 

[rickystl]

UPDATE: Yesterday afternoon, I received an email from USPS that my order did in fact ship on 10/14. So it does look like they shipped Friday (less the Monday holiday). As of 2:00AM Tuesday USPS shows the package in Tulsa. So it does appear that I will receive my order this week :shocked2: Now, I just hope it contains the right parts. If so, that would mean I placed an order with TRS and received same in one weeks time. Miracles sometimes happen. :haha: I'll let ya'll know when it arrives. Rick. :hatsoff:

 

[rickystl]

FINAL UPDATE: Well, shipment did in fact arrive yesterday, Thursday. And I'm happy to report that all of the parts are correct as ordered.
I'm going to try this again. I'll work up a new list this weekend and fax it to them. I'll just order what's IN STOCK on my list. The most difficult part is to get someone to respond to you. :haha: Rick. :hatsoff: