This old gun !

[hawkeye2]

"When did the abbreviation Ky begin being used?

Post Office started in 1963, for mail sent before that date the State name was written out completely

If the barrel markings are post 1963, it may indicate the work done to the barrel time frame"

The P.O. mandated 2 letter state abbreviations in 1963 with both letters being upper case and not followed with a period. Prior to that abbreviations for the states were used regularly however many were more that 2 letters (Mass. for Massachusetts). They began with an upper case letter with the rest being lower case and followed by a period. The marking on the barrel is Ky which could be any year prior to 10-1963.

 

[Celticstoneman]

That sure is an interesting old rifle!

I am inclined to agree with @Grenadier1758 regarding the percussion lock, and replacement of the mainspring. It looks to me as if the stabilizing pin on the side of the new mainspring was in a slightly different location from the original, so the gunsmith drilled a new hole for it and left the old hole open.

That is a very unusual lock. The hammer is elegant, but of a very unusual form. The shape of the lock plate is reminiscent of some early flint locks, but the plate is dead flat with no ornamentation or markings of any kind. By the time original percussion rifles were being built, "factory made" and "Warranted" locks were commonplace. I'm wondering if that lock might have been put together from assorted parts, on a "shop made" plate. Another thing is that it has two side nails, which is usual for flint locks, but much less common for percussion rifles.

Very perplexing.

I would agree that the barrel has been shortened a few inches. The forward ramrod pipe overlaps the nosecap slightly, while we would expect it to be several inches back. I would conclude that the barrel and the wood forend were shortened, and the nosecap refitted to the shortened stock.

The question might be, "Which end of the barrel was shortened?" A lot of old rifles had more or less erosion at the breech, inside and out, so they were shortened from the back end and a new breechplug was fitted. The barrel was then moved back in the stock. If the barrel from this rifle could be taken off, turned over, and examined, we might find some old dovetails hammered flat, to show where the tenons had been moved. I just have a feeling that whoever shortened the barrel would have been less likely to ornament the muzzle than the original builder.

One last thought is that the cheek piece appears rather crudely carved. It just doesn't match that elegant patchbox.

Regarding the abbreviation of "Kentucky," I have few facts to offer. @Davey Boy has advised us that the USPS adopted official state name abbreviation in 1963. I didn't know when that occurred, but now we do! However, I do know writers back in the day used abbreviations, and I have noted the use of a small, underlined letter in superscript, as on the "y" in that barrel's marking, in some very early 19th century writing. I would not know how to use that for dating the rifle, though.

There is much to ponder with this rifle. Thanks, @Celticstoneman , for presenting it!

Notchy Bob

Sir, I was hoping that you would reply. Thanks for your insight. When my cajones get just a smidgen bigger ,the barrel comes off to get a better look see.
John

 

[Mad Michael]

When did the abbreviation Ky begin being used?

According to the USPS themselves the earliest use of Ky as an abbreviation for Kentucky was 1831. Yes it is true that the USPS standardized all abbreviations for states in 1963 not to facilitate ease in identifying a state, although it is true that all kinds of different abbreviations were used at random and at whim before that date, but to facilitate standard placement of the ZIP CODE which was also new that year.

https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-history/state-abbreviations.htm
I'd like to propose another alternative for this rifle: Let us accept that it is an original Dickson an Gilmore barrel but it is not original to either the stock or the lock, which might or might not be original to each other! This would account for the cutting down of the stock, the lock that doesn't seem to match the style of rifles built by the two. Just as we, today, may replace a lock, stock, barrel, trigger to either improve the rifle or replace something that broke, the practice was way more common when the rifle was a necessity of life. Keep in mind also that there is a good chance the rifle was made in Kentucky before the WBS and keeping it working would have been very important.

Mad Michael.

 

[tenngun]

This is a photo of the muzzle . What do you think? I'm having a hard time guessing at a caliber with seven sides what is the measuring parameters ? The best I get is 11mm I have only seen one photo of a muzzle with the stars and dots and now can't find that. Is this really a Whitworth? More photos of the rifle tomorrow View attachment 94066

My my, look how wide the rails are!!!!
I hate it when old gunsmiths didn’t know how to make an historically correct gun

 

[Celticstoneman]

According to the USPS themselves the earliest use of Ky as an abbreviation for Kentucky was 1831. Yes it is true that the USPS standardized all abbreviations for states in 1963 not to facilitate ease in identifying a state, although it is true that all kinds of different abbreviations were used at random and at whim before that date, but to facilitate standard placement of the ZIP CODE which was also new that year.

https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-history/state-abbreviations.htm
I'd like to propose another alternative for this rifle: Let us accept that it is an original Dickson an Gilmore barrel but it is not original to either the stock or the lock, which might or might not be original to each other! This would account for the cutting down of the stock, the lock that doesn't seem to match the style of rifles built by the two. Just as we, today, may replace a lock, stock, barrel, trigger to either improve the rifle or replace something that broke, the practice was way more common when the rifle was a necessity of life. Keep in mind also that there is a good chance the rifle was made in Kentucky before the WBS and keeping it working would have been very important.

Mad Michael.
[/
Mad Michael,
I like it!
John

 

[Celticstoneman]

Fella's
As I read the forum I realize that I am like John Snow , I Know Nothing! I am so glad you all are here.
John

 

[Celticstoneman]

No sir, I see them too. No I meant the filed grooves around the crown.
I have a long held theory why they exist!

Sir, would you please share your theory? I am all ears ,well mostly
Regards
John

 

[Britsmoothy]

Sir, would you please share your theory? I am all ears ,well mostly
Regards
John

I have often steered a shotgun shot load via filing the muzzle or relieving a muzzles crown in just a small area or quadrant.
I believe that early original rifle makers with the absence of accurate machinery regulated their rifles to near centered sights via a similar method.
They put those decorative grooves around the muzzle for a reason! And not just to ease loading!
The originals I have seen close up look like one or two grooves are filed ever so slightly deeper. It is only a slight amount that shifts the emerging projectile.

 

[Celticstoneman]

That's a very nice old rifle.

Sir, Thank you.
John

 

[Tanselman]

This rifle looks like a modern composite gun built around an old Dickson & Gilmore barrel by someone with very basic skills. Stock is a modern "interpretation" as are inlays, etc., but not historically accurate. Triggers appear to be original with barrel, guard may be an old guard but definitely not the one that accompanied the barrel. Patchbox looks like a modern reproduction based on its color and lack of engraving, sort of a western PA style totally foreign to Dickson & Gilmore. Shelby Gallien