How can you expect her to listen to someone, that knows more than she does? :grin:
That would be a whole new concept :rotf:
That would be a whole new concept :rotf:
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Thompson Center bashing (help)
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If it aint broke............ I love my forum.....bad moderator.......don't touch,keep your hands in your pockets.
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Walks Alone
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sproulman said:
Stands to reason. How often have you heard of Smith & Wesson giving away new parts or replacing entire parts groups for their revolvers for free, especially when they are for a firearm that is decades old? Or any other firearms MFG in this country (unless its a safety recall)?
Best way to keep S&W from reducing TC's customer service is to not take unfair advantage of it like some folks do IMO.
Walks Alone said:
Let's review how a business operates:
T/C opened its doors in 1967.
T/C's product line has always been advertised with lifetime warranty;
Product warranty costs are projected into the purchase price of a product;
Customer's buy the products knowing that and pay the price for possible future warranty work;
A very small percentage of customers occasionally send the product back for warranty service;
T/C provides the prepaid warranty service to the customer;
The profitability issues are already factored in from market forecasts and historical warranty service data related to average repair costs and the percentages of customers who will even bother to actually submit warranty claims.
Given all that, I'm curious to know what logic you use to make such a claim that "some customers are taking unfair advantage of a company ??"
paulvallandigham
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Do you really think anyone could " factor " in the inflation of the dollar that has occurred since 1967? Or the cost of designing and coming up with a NEW flintlock action that is still compatible with the older designed barrel and tang/breechplugs?
The real problem for S&W is that all that " profit" was made and distrbuted to the original owners of the company, and not to S&W. There is no contingency fund, or fully funded, amortization account holding millions of dollars in it to pay for all that warranty work that was transferred to S&W when they bought the company.
The new company has to come up with those costs out of present sales. The last owners made the mistake of stopping to market the Traditional Sidelock action rifles to compete openly for the business being taken by the lies and half truths told by the zip gun makers. I believe all the gun companies made a Huge mistake, by not going after these guys, and their stooge gun writers. I don't know any gun owner who wants to read gun magazines where all they ever hear or read from the writers is how GOOD a gun is! And, then, hear years later from another writer, that the author of that article was drunk the entire hunting trip, that he had his guide kill the animal he is pictures with as being taken with the new gun, and that he never got the gun to shoot accurately at all!
Editors of gun magazines can be understood for not wanting to publish articles that are critical of advertiser's products, but if they are going to improve the number of readers and subscribers, they are going to have to bite the bullet and tell the truth. If some product is so bad it fails, send it back and write nothing about it.
But, then, tell the company to change its ads about the gun for their magazine, or take their business elsewhere. The shooting public, much less the magazine subscribers should not be the victims of the magazine's editor's greed for more advertising revenue, at the expense of defrauding the readers. If something is JUNK, say so!
Thankfully, the internet in general, and this website in particular has plenty of room for people to voice their opinions about certain guns, and certain companies who fall far short of customer expectations. I believe we are teaching some editors, and a lot of gunmakers some old fashioned lessons on how to treat the customer.
One of the reasons we have a "Letters to the Editor " Column in Muzzle Blasts, for instance, is because I went on the warpath with the former editor because she would not publish my complaint about a product, advertised in a " product review article " written by a Hack writer, announcing a new clamp on sight for open top replica revolvers. I sent the company a letter expressing interest in the product, and heard nothing. I tried to call, but the phone number give was no longer in service. I contacted MB, by mail, asking for a new address or phone number for the guy. The editor contacted the author, but he didn't respond either.
I did not expect MB to publish an article critical of some company that went out of business before it started, but I at least expected them to scold the author in public. When they would not do that, I asked that I be allowed to send a letter in that will be published warning other members about the " THIN" ethics of the author, and of the folks hustling business through him in Muzzle Blasts. She told me it had to go to the Board of Directors.
I saw her personally at the June shoot that year, and talked to her again about a letters to the Editor column. I told her that the association could not be legally held liable for anything said by someone in a letter to the editor( That is the law!) I asked her to be sure the Board of Directors were told this, and if they had any questions about liability, to have the NMLRA attorney advise them, and to call me for the case law on the subject.
It took a couple of years, but we finally got a Letters to the Editor column in Muzzle Blasts. The Editor still likes to publish only " Nice " letters, but once in awhile, something that should be said gets printed there.
I am thoroughly disgusted by the out right lies being told to customers who are being talked into buying the cheap zip guns on the market. Its not even a close question. And many of those same lies show up in the ads for these guns, and for the powder, and other components being sold to shoot in the zip guns.
I will never understand why the manufacturers of fine traditional side lock guns, like T/C sat by and said nothing, but instead began marketing similar guns themselves. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!
But for all their shortcomings, I don't think you can blame them for not accurately estimating the actual cost of their Warranty services back when! And I don't think we should expect Smith and Wesson to be so cavalier about giving away new parts when there is nothing wrong with the old ones.
If the IRS code required companies to have full funded depreciation accounts( not since the early 1930s),We could be more honestly critical of management over repairs. Because there is no such requirement, its very hard to expect any company to do so. That contributes to the problems of inflation, and stock valuations, but it doesn't solve the problem of dealing with run-away inflation over a 40 or 50 year period.
The real problem for S&W is that all that " profit" was made and distrbuted to the original owners of the company, and not to S&W. There is no contingency fund, or fully funded, amortization account holding millions of dollars in it to pay for all that warranty work that was transferred to S&W when they bought the company.
The new company has to come up with those costs out of present sales. The last owners made the mistake of stopping to market the Traditional Sidelock action rifles to compete openly for the business being taken by the lies and half truths told by the zip gun makers. I believe all the gun companies made a Huge mistake, by not going after these guys, and their stooge gun writers. I don't know any gun owner who wants to read gun magazines where all they ever hear or read from the writers is how GOOD a gun is! And, then, hear years later from another writer, that the author of that article was drunk the entire hunting trip, that he had his guide kill the animal he is pictures with as being taken with the new gun, and that he never got the gun to shoot accurately at all!
Editors of gun magazines can be understood for not wanting to publish articles that are critical of advertiser's products, but if they are going to improve the number of readers and subscribers, they are going to have to bite the bullet and tell the truth. If some product is so bad it fails, send it back and write nothing about it.
But, then, tell the company to change its ads about the gun for their magazine, or take their business elsewhere. The shooting public, much less the magazine subscribers should not be the victims of the magazine's editor's greed for more advertising revenue, at the expense of defrauding the readers. If something is JUNK, say so!
Thankfully, the internet in general, and this website in particular has plenty of room for people to voice their opinions about certain guns, and certain companies who fall far short of customer expectations. I believe we are teaching some editors, and a lot of gunmakers some old fashioned lessons on how to treat the customer.
One of the reasons we have a "Letters to the Editor " Column in Muzzle Blasts, for instance, is because I went on the warpath with the former editor because she would not publish my complaint about a product, advertised in a " product review article " written by a Hack writer, announcing a new clamp on sight for open top replica revolvers. I sent the company a letter expressing interest in the product, and heard nothing. I tried to call, but the phone number give was no longer in service. I contacted MB, by mail, asking for a new address or phone number for the guy. The editor contacted the author, but he didn't respond either.
I did not expect MB to publish an article critical of some company that went out of business before it started, but I at least expected them to scold the author in public. When they would not do that, I asked that I be allowed to send a letter in that will be published warning other members about the " THIN" ethics of the author, and of the folks hustling business through him in Muzzle Blasts. She told me it had to go to the Board of Directors.
I saw her personally at the June shoot that year, and talked to her again about a letters to the Editor column. I told her that the association could not be legally held liable for anything said by someone in a letter to the editor( That is the law!) I asked her to be sure the Board of Directors were told this, and if they had any questions about liability, to have the NMLRA attorney advise them, and to call me for the case law on the subject.
It took a couple of years, but we finally got a Letters to the Editor column in Muzzle Blasts. The Editor still likes to publish only " Nice " letters, but once in awhile, something that should be said gets printed there.
I am thoroughly disgusted by the out right lies being told to customers who are being talked into buying the cheap zip guns on the market. Its not even a close question. And many of those same lies show up in the ads for these guns, and for the powder, and other components being sold to shoot in the zip guns.
I will never understand why the manufacturers of fine traditional side lock guns, like T/C sat by and said nothing, but instead began marketing similar guns themselves. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!
But for all their shortcomings, I don't think you can blame them for not accurately estimating the actual cost of their Warranty services back when! And I don't think we should expect Smith and Wesson to be so cavalier about giving away new parts when there is nothing wrong with the old ones.
If the IRS code required companies to have full funded depreciation accounts( not since the early 1930s),We could be more honestly critical of management over repairs. Because there is no such requirement, its very hard to expect any company to do so. That contributes to the problems of inflation, and stock valuations, but it doesn't solve the problem of dealing with run-away inflation over a 40 or 50 year period.
Yep, when they are gone we'll be sorry. I see a repair as ok. Reguardless of what some folks preach, getting free stuff isn't what a warranty is about.
It's amazing that a person can let personal prejudice blind them. A company has to sell what people want. Bear Archery started making compound bows because they sell. It's impossible to compare a T/C sidelock with a modern inline. They are amazing machines.
i guess this could happen.
t/c changed locks and i feel they should cover that under warranty even tho mine was working ok OTHER than breaking my flints.
getting only 10 shots with flint is expensive.
most companies you have to be the original owner to get warranty repairs.
maybe you could list some of things they cover that you think is being abused.
t/c changed locks and i feel they should cover that under warranty even tho mine was working ok OTHER than breaking my flints.
getting only 10 shots with flint is expensive.
most companies you have to be the original owner to get warranty repairs.
maybe you could list some of things they cover that you think is being abused.
Actually, Ruger does it quite often. They aren't quite as liberal with replacing perfectly good parts as T/C is, but they frequently make repairs and replacements for no charge.Walks Alone said:
Apologies for mentioning a modern firearms manufacturer in a traditional forum, but Ruger did make the finest bp percussion revolver on the market, and I felt it was appropriate to correct a mistaken impression.
410-er
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DON'T GET ME STARTED ON S&W!Had a model 39 with extracter problem.Called them.They said sent it for "warrenty work".Got a letter stating they want $50 to fix.Called them for an explanation and all they kept repeating over and over was "the extracter needs replaced."Gun was as new with no wear.NO MORE S&W FOR ME!
Well, I think its very clear that the few nay-sayers here aren't exactly hi-roller fortune 500 CEO's, so I'll put my money on T/C knowing far more about running a successful business for almost a half century than they do.
:grin:
And remember, any time T/C wants to decide against handling a repair request under their life time warranty, that's a call they can make on the spot every day of the week...but they choose not to...so no, they are obviously not "being taken advantage of"
:thumbsup:
:grin:
And remember, any time T/C wants to decide against handling a repair request under their life time warranty, that's a call they can make on the spot every day of the week...but they choose not to...so no, they are obviously not "being taken advantage of"
:thumbsup:
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What Mark Lewis said...
paulvallandigham
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Always ask the guy on the phone for his full name and work title. He won't want to give it. He will ask you why you want to know. Tell him your attorney needs to information for the law suit he is preparing against the company, and he wants to name you as a defendant, so he can call you as a witness without having to pay you any money. Then ask him to speak to his boss. He's an idiot.
No company can dare to answer a lawsuit over a $40.00 part, particularly on a new gun. The JUDGE will eat their lawyers alive in court, and they may end up paying your attorney's fees and costs.
The idiots are put in those consumer complaint department to scare away complaining customers. They don't care that you are so mad you won't buy any more of their products. The Bean counters have absolutely no idea what damage they are doing to a companies long time reputation- they are only interested in cooking the books to make the company look good to the share holders so it can be sold. They don't care about company image with customers, because they don't intend to be there very long, either.
The last thing you need to do is write a letter to the Board of Directors- copy all of them-- and tell them what their employees are doing to their business. Poop runs down hill, and the Board can even fire the CEO! Always tell the Directors what is going on when a complaint is not resolved satisfactory to you. The CEO spends almost as much time filtering out bad news to the Directors, as he does manufacturing good news for the Directors. Good Directors don't take the CEO at his word about anything, and go down to the factory floor and talk to the workers. They ask to see the complaint letters. They visit retail stores that carry their products and talk to the sellers, and the buyers. They go to gun shows and talk to the dealers, and the buyers. They attend shoots and talk to the shooters. When directors take their jobs seriously, the company soon changes its tune, and gets in step with its customer base. At Various Times, management at S&W has done this. But they have had a lot of different owners over the past 25 years and the managers have not always been the brightest bulbs on the Christmas Tree.
No company can dare to answer a lawsuit over a $40.00 part, particularly on a new gun. The JUDGE will eat their lawyers alive in court, and they may end up paying your attorney's fees and costs.
The idiots are put in those consumer complaint department to scare away complaining customers. They don't care that you are so mad you won't buy any more of their products. The Bean counters have absolutely no idea what damage they are doing to a companies long time reputation- they are only interested in cooking the books to make the company look good to the share holders so it can be sold. They don't care about company image with customers, because they don't intend to be there very long, either.
The last thing you need to do is write a letter to the Board of Directors- copy all of them-- and tell them what their employees are doing to their business. Poop runs down hill, and the Board can even fire the CEO! Always tell the Directors what is going on when a complaint is not resolved satisfactory to you. The CEO spends almost as much time filtering out bad news to the Directors, as he does manufacturing good news for the Directors. Good Directors don't take the CEO at his word about anything, and go down to the factory floor and talk to the workers. They ask to see the complaint letters. They visit retail stores that carry their products and talk to the sellers, and the buyers. They go to gun shows and talk to the dealers, and the buyers. They attend shoots and talk to the shooters. When directors take their jobs seriously, the company soon changes its tune, and gets in step with its customer base. At Various Times, management at S&W has done this. But they have had a lot of different owners over the past 25 years and the managers have not always been the brightest bulbs on the Christmas Tree.
Walks Alone
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Geez, you make a comment in support of a company that you've been one of the biggest users of its products and had nothing but an outstanding relationship with for over 40 years and the hordes here go crazy.
Let's see - unfair. I'll list a few in general (but there are others)...
Expecting free repair or replacement of anything that is normal wear and tear on a firarm from use. TC makes some amazing firearms, but even they eventually wear out.
Expecting the replacement of original parts because years later they came up with a better design (that was not due to a safety issue) and you want a free upgrade. Note, in most cases the originals are not broke, just inferior.
Expecting free replacement of items damaged by someone or something from misuse or abuse or accident.
To me all of these (and other head games) are taking advantage of their lifetime warranty.
Let's see - unfair. I'll list a few in general (but there are others)...
Expecting free repair or replacement of anything that is normal wear and tear on a firarm from use. TC makes some amazing firearms, but even they eventually wear out.
Expecting the replacement of original parts because years later they came up with a better design (that was not due to a safety issue) and you want a free upgrade. Note, in most cases the originals are not broke, just inferior.
Expecting free replacement of items damaged by someone or something from misuse or abuse or accident.
To me all of these (and other head games) are taking advantage of their lifetime warranty.
Walks Alone
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What Mark said +++++.Mark Lewis said:
Walks Alone
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Your joking, right? The door on the left will take you to the real world.sproulman said:
Walks Alone
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So you think they sold out to S&W because they were making so much money that the owners decided to retire? As much as I like them, TC has made quite a few poor business decisions, especially over the last decade.roundball said:
The TC we have all known and loved doesn't make the calls anymore, S&W does. To list a few, I think TC made the call to give parts/repairs away because...roundball said:
... they had done it from near day one and it became kind of a hallmark of TC that they took great pride in.
... because in many cases I'd bet it costs them less to just give parts, even complete locks away rather than pay a smith to repair/rebuild the old ones.
... had continued to do it because in these very hard times for them they can't afford to loose customers and sales.
TC is not a big company as companies go, so I'm sure it has been a challenge for them to survive these hard times.
Unfortunately S&W is who bought them out, so its anybodies guess how much longer TC will be allowed to honor such a liberal warranty attitude, or even keep their doors open for that matter. Only requesting warranty from them for reasonable and honest things would certainly help keep them around longer.
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