Thoughts on Flintlocks for Cape buffalo

[flaming canvas]

The term that has not been brought up yet is "stopping rifle". A 4 bore would definitely quailify. I am dubious about applying the name to a .58.

 

[JohnTheGreek]

Keep in mind that even professionals do not usually hunt with their "stopping rifles" if they can afford it AND another more pleasant weapon to shoot. Baker, for instance, in one of his writings notes that he employed "Baby" VERY rarely and only under the most frightful circumstances. He probably took boatloads of big game with what today would be called a "small bore". The .58 isn't a stopper for sure but.....I'm not sure this matters in the days of PH back-up. It didn't matter in the days of gun bearers and 4 bores either.

JMHO,

John

 

[rabjr]

The shot (fired 80 yards away) entered the buff's chest between the front legs, passed through the heart and lungs and ended up in the hind quarters...

One more little detail about that hunt: That buffalo went 1,000 yards before it dropped. Lucky for Forgett, it used it's adrenalin to run the other way.

Sorry but something smells here... :bull:

 

[Bob J]

Baker had a pair of 10 bore rifles for "day-to-day" stuff.

 

[BillinOregon]

Swamp Rat: I know it sounds fishy, but hvae you ever heard of heart-shot whitetails running 200 yards? The Cape buffalo's ability to keep on ticking while dead on its feet is what gives it the reputation it has -- that and its foul attitude. Read John Burger's Horned Death on this subject. The Cape buff's ability to absorb punishment seems almost otherworldly compared to a deer or even an elk.

 

[Rat]

In round ball terms, a .58 would be, and was considered a small bore in Africa. I would not consider it a stopping rifle.

However, with a 600 grain slug and 120-130 grains of powder, I'm thinking that it would be a stopper on most beasts...on a cape buff, and considering you only get one shot, maybe not. But I think it would be up to killing the animal very well. ?? A .570" round ball, and a .579" 600-625 grain slug are two different animals for sure.

I still like the tree stand idea.

Rat

 

[JohnTheGreek]

It seems to me that, at the ranges cape buffalo are usually shot (30-80 yards), NO rifle is going to actually put them down with enough regularity that you can feel 100% safe. I mean, by that standard (and short of a CNS shot), none of the great safari cartridges are "stoppers" either. It is called "dangerous game hunting" after all isn't it? Further, I have a really hard time believing that, on buffalo, a big heavy .58 conical won't kill as well as any of the big "traditional" safari cartridges if the shot is placed correctly under the shoulder. Seriously, a projectile of roughly the same diameter reaching the vitals to the same degree will generate just as much blood loss and kill every bit as well. Now, the difficulty comes in choosing that first shot properly and making it.

JMHO,

John

 

Sorry but something smells here... :bull:

Read some Peter Capstick some time. Stories of buffs with multiple shots into the vitals area with big mean cartridges like .470 Nitro Express and .458 Winchester Magnum, running around with blood squirting 30 feet away from them. The things are notoriously hard to kill, and can run on adrenaline for what seems like an eternity. One running 1000 yards after taking one shot from a muzzleloader doesn't surprise me at all.

 

Being a firm believer in social evolution and an avid reader of the Darwin Awards I will only say that I will enjoy reading of your efforts.

 

[Walker357]

First off, if you're hunting from a tree stand, pick a darn sturdy tree. Second, if you don't stop it you don't have to worry about where they will bury you. You'll be stomped so far in the ground it won't make sense to dig you up. Remember, the idea behind hunting is to kill the animal. :haha: :m2c:

 

[rabjr]

I understand Cape Buffalo's are badass animals. I just find it hard to believe an animal can run that far shot through the heart. My experiance with whitetails is they run like hell and expire anywhere within 75 to 150 yards. I know theres a big differance between a whitetail and a Cape Buffalo... :hmm: Ya know, I always wanted to read a Peter Capstick book but never got around to it. Maybe its time I did. eace:

 

[BillinOregon]

Some snippets from Samuel Baker's "Wild Beasts and Their Ways," published in 1890.
From the chapter on Cape buffalo:
"The 3-oz. (Baker's Gibbs belted ball gun taking a three-ounce ball over 16 drams, a dram being about 28 grains) was in the best of humours, and its performance led my friend Dick to imagine that buffaloes were, after all, not such resolute beasts as had been described. He was armed with a ridiculous single barreled rifle, no. 20 spherical ball (about .62 caliber). He had fired a number of fhots from this toy uselessly, and I had killed the various buffaloes with the heavy weapon."
And another:
"I have killed elephants with a No. 16 spherical bullet (1oz.) and African buffaloes and rhinoceras with a 24 bore (.577) and only 2 1/2 drams of powder, in the old days of muzzle-loaders; but these were favourable shots in positions which afforded light resistance. Such instances are the exceptions to the rule and I cannot too energetically impress my experience upon all beginners, that they must especially be armed with rifles that are of proportionates strength to the animal being hunted."

 

[Huntinfool]

Call me nuts, but I've been scheming on a cape buffalo hunt with s flintlock.
What's your thoughts for bullet style and loads?
Cap'n ted

My thoughts are use real hard lead and as much powder as you and the gun can stand!

And have a real good backup man with a potent magnum! Then go for it!

Chuck

 

Back in the 1960's a chap named Ruark wrote extensively and wonderfuly about hunting dangerous game. In a nut shell, he advised that all hunters should relize that is the "dead" animals that kill hunters and as such should "use enough gun". I knew a guy a long time ago who went on a Cape Buff hunt with a .375 H&H Mag. He practiced for months on just the shooting alone. When it came to the hunt he smacked the Buff all three times right in the power plant - and as he told the story - it was a very fortunate thing for him that his "guide" backed him up with a .416 Rigby because although the animal was dead from his 3 shots with the H&H, he still needed to be convinced by the Rigby. That, by any measure, is a lot of killing.

 

Death in the Long Grass baby. I've read that book twice, and am about due to pick it up again. Excellent stuff. I've read others of his as well... and they're all fantastic. You will probably re-consider your weapon of choice for buff after you read some of his accounts. eace:

 

[Rat]

Hey Chet I agree with you, but what's interesting is that I've been kind of studying accounts of people Brown Bear hunting in Alaska, and having similar experiences to the fellow with the .375 mentioned.

One trend I've noticed is that even though someone might "use enough gun", thier choice in bullets will sometimes be really DUMB, often bullets light for the caliber. And sometime the guides are not much better.

For instance, some hunters take a .338 for grizz, which actually is kind of light, but then load it with 200 or 225 grain Noslers, (the Nosler Partition is a piece of crap, for dangerous game, IMHO) instead of a heavy round nose 250 or 275 grain bullet, and then wonder why the guide has to finish the animal off.

So with a ML, I think the choice of projectile is the key for sure, something big long and heavy. In .58" that would be something at least 600 grains, IMHO. Or in other words, sometimes it doesn't matter what size or caliber the weapon is, if it's loaded with the wrong projectile.

Rat

 

[leadball]

I have hunted cape buffalo with a variety of calibers and have killed them with a 270 with 130 grain bullets, even though it took several rounds. I also had the opportunity to hunt with recurve but was chased into a pond by an enraged cape buffalo. I have found they are very hard to bring down even with a stout rifle.

All this took place on a Playstation game called "Dangerous Hunts" by Cabela's. :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

 

[Slamfire]

Read some Peter Capstick some time. Stories of buffs with multiple shots into the vitals area with big mean cartridges like .470 Nitro Express and .458 Winchester Magnum, running around with blood squirting 30 feet away from them. The things are notoriously hard to kill, and can run on adrenaline for what seems like an eternity. One running 1000 yards after taking one shot from a muzzleloader doesn't surprise me at all.

Peter certainly has a way with words, and I can't call him a liar, but having read "Death in the Long Grass", I find it hard to believe there are any living people in Africa. :no:

 

Yo Rat Your comments on the quality and performance of the bullet itself are right on the money and got me thinking. I wonder if solids have a better pefomance record on big and dangerous game than the partitions and such. Maybe it stands to reason then, that a solid round or conical lead projectile has a better terminal velocity and energy transfer ability than the jacketed types? If that is the case, then I would think that the only real issue in using a muzzleloader to hunt dangerous game is the need for a fast follow up shot and the appropraite caliber. Frankly, if it were me, I would be shaking like a wino after a 2 gallon Mad Dog 20/20 saturday night and would need as many follow up shots as possible.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Choose your back-up well. Unfortunately, just because some bozo calls himself a "guide", does not mean they are a good shot, and can shoot good under pressure.

"Requirements to be a Zim PH
**Snip a huge amount of great info**

Now the only problem with those wonderful requirements and great training program is that they are in Zimbabwe which, outside of perhaps Victoria Falls, is not a safe place to be thanks to Mugabe and his band of thugs. The company I work for used to run crazy expensive wingshooting train safari trips into Zimbabwe. Had to cancel a trip about 4 years ago about two weeks before the trip was scheduled to go, when the owner of one of the game lodges was killed by the thugs who like to call themselves "veterans". These "veterans" had decided that they wanted the place for themselves. Mugabe and his government encouraged it.

The company still runs those trips in South Africa, Botswana, and Zambia, but won't venture into Zimbabwe again until this nut is gone.
:imo: