Thoughts on my Frizzen?

[M. De Land]

I like this photo, hard to catch the beginning of the sparks being thrown but neat to see. Good amount of slivers being shaved off and heading straight for the center of the pan!

View attachment 293209

Ah, how best to say this without causing offense, actually that's rather feeble spark production in my opinion ! It looks like the flint strike is below the half way point on the frizzen face and should preferably start in the upper third quadrant and scrape down through the lower two thirds with no bouncing and break up in the scrape pattern.
A good way to get a better read on frizzen/flint contact and scrape is to mark up the frizzen with a sharpy then dry fire several times and the contact patterns in the frizzen will reveal the relation and if your bouncing or not.

 

[FlinterNick]

Ah, how best to say this without causing offense, actually that's rather feeble spark production in my opinion ! It looks like the flint strike is below the half way point on the frizzen face and should preferably start in the upper third quadrant and scrape down through the lower two thirds with no bouncing and break up in the scrape pattern.
A good way to get a better read on frizzen/flint contact and scrape is to mark up the frizzen with a sharpy then dry fire several times and the contact patterns in the frizzen will reveal the relation and if your bouncing or not.

Disagree, a resold frizzen with 1095 sparks hotter, its not the amount of sparks, its just sparks better overall. Indian made locks can be carburized with cherry red, but it’s a superficial fix at best, and you’ll have to do it again eventually.

A 1095 hardened and tempered will spark ten times better than most other frizzens.

You really can’t get much better than 1095 for a frizzen, possibly 80CRV2 or 15N20.

Jim Kilbler had some great hardening and tempering advice on his 1095 frizzens.

Great job compressorguy !

 

[M. De Land]

Disagree, a resold frizzen with 1095 sparks hotter, its not the amount of sparks, its just sparks better overall. Indian made locks can be carburized with cherry red, but it’s a superficial fix at best, and you’ll have to do it again eventually.

A 1095 hardened and tempered will spark ten times better than most other frizzens.

You really can’t get much better than 1095 for a frizzen, possibly 80CRV2 or 15N20.

Jim Kilbler had some great hardening and tempering advice on his 1095 frizzens.

Great job compressorguy !

Well, in my opinion your after white hot sparks not red and the more the better so what ever steel used for the sole, that produces this, is the way to go !

 

[Compressorguy]

Ah, how best to say this without causing offense, actually that's rather feeble spark production in my opinion ! It looks like the flint strike is below the half way point on the frizzen face and should preferably start in the upper third quadrant and scrape down through the lower two thirds with no bouncing and break up in the scrape pattern.
A good way to get a better read on frizzen/flint contact and scrape is to mark up the frizzen with a sharpy then dry fire several times and the contact patterns in the frizzen will reveal the relation and if your bouncing or not.

I like this photo, hard to catch the “beginning” of the sparks being thrown but neat to see. Good amount of slivers being shaved off and heading straight for the center of the pan!

Absolutely no offense taken! As I would dare not stand in front of these “feeble” sparks! Please note I stated I caught the “beginning” of the spark production. They eventually turn white hot as they interact with oxygen and form nice white hot balls in the pan. The low strike point appearance is lag in the pic. It actually strikes 1/3 down from the top as evidenced in the frizzen face frames below. These are from the same video a few frames forward. My whole premise for this is it went from NO spark to ALOT of sparks by resoling and has WAY more reliable, consistent ignition. Works for me.

 

[M. De Land]

Absolutely no offense taken! As I would dare not stand in front of these “feeble” sparks! Please note I stated I caught the “beginning” of the spark production. They eventually turn white hot as they interact with oxygen and form nice white hot balls in the pan. The low strike point appearance is lag in the pic. It actually strikes 1/3 down from the top as evidenced in the frizzen face frames below. These are from the same video a few frames forward. My whole premise for this is it went from NO spark to ALOT of sparks by resoling and has WAY more reliable, consistent ignition. Works for me.

View attachment 293395View attachment 293396View attachment 293397

A good, well tuned lock and sharp flint will produce three times that volume of white hot sparks !

 

[Rob M.]

SDSmlf has this exactly right............. first question

Does it spark well?

No, get it resoled or rehardened

Yes, keep shooting and quit worrying

Well put ....

 

[kyron4]

I’ve ready many post in the forum that they make good resole material due to their high carbon content and already thin nature. Up to .030” seems to be the preferred thickness but I’ve read many people have used thin bandsaw blades, pallet strap bands and old files, etc, etc. I dont believe the rivet method would work very well with thin material and they should be brazed, soldered or epoxied on since not much thickness for the rivet to grab. I personally used .060” thick 1095 high carbon steel stock purchased off Amazon and ground it down until thinner. There are many different lengths, widths and thickness available for cheap. The thicker it is though the more you’ll have to grind off the frizzen face to compensate for it. Not a big deal and easily performed on a bench grinder. You’ll typically want the frizzen close to the same thickness after resoling as it was before.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0C1RX5LT6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

Note I also counter sunk/beveled all the holes (resole as well) to give the rivets much more grab. It isn’t going anywhere! Vice grips are your friends! The brand new frizzen was toast, only one little spark from a BENCH GRINDER, much less a flint strike, so I resoled it. Sparks from the piece of 1095. View attachment 293263
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View attachment 293264View attachment 293267

Thanks !!

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

Thank you!

 

[1971fx]

Old Brown Bess

 

[FlinterNick]

Well, in my opinion your after white hot sparks not red and the more the better so what ever steel used for the sole, that produces this, is the way to go !

Personally i go for long term use rather than short term term solutions.

Compressor guy’s attention to detail is superb in his resole of the frizzen, because of the practices and procedures he applied to attach the 1095 shim. That frizzen will last a very long time, and probably outlive any other Indian made frizzen.

A well through hardened frizzen in 1095 or a case hardened frizzen in another steel will provide consistent sparking. You can carburize with compound over and over until the frizzen is paper thin to produce sparks that look like fireworks, but that will only last so very long because the hard ending process applied only penetrates so deep. Thats what would end up happening on compressor guy’s indian made frizzen. Indian made frizzens are a mystery steel too, not knowing what you’re looking at or working with is frustrating. Maybe you’ll get lucky and have an Indian frizzen that has a higher carbon content, however most do not.

We had that issue with 8620 frizzens back in the 1980’s, it’s just a very low carbon steel that didnt spark well but it was very easy to drill and assemble, however it takes a nice case if you pack harden it with bone charcoal and cyanide mixtures. This creates a very high quality consistent sparking steel, not a new concept at all, it’s been around since the 18th century or before. Wallace Guster makes mention of that in his video documentary.

The Resoling concept has been used since people began building flintlocks. The Spanish actually dovetailed on higher quality steel to an iron battery, it’s not a new concept. Wallace Gustler in his video takes a dull used file and forge welds it to a piece of wrought iron, same concept as Resoling just a different approach.

Modern steels are higher quality such as 1095, yet we still have companies casting frizzens in lower quality mild steels. sometimes we think we’re smarter than our predecessors with things like cherry red however, what they did still works better.

 

[RAEDWALD]

We have better steel today, its a matter of cost and availability when a manufacture determines what grade to use.

Indian gun makers use recycled steel from ships, bridges, rail cars etc to forge and cast their parts, which is one reason why their products are inferior in quality.

And in many cases it allows them to use better steels than their prices could merit otherwise. Many western steels are also made of scrap from such sources. Indian steel was often superior to European steel until the 19th century and places like Jaipur have been formal armouries for centuries. Indian factories make everything for modern military guns from pistols via rifles through artillery to tanks.

 

[RAEDWALD]

Colonel Peter Hawker was the purchaser of many guns from the best London gunsmiths of his day and routinely ordered them as new to come with an added high carbon steel sole. Probably soldered on but quite possibly riveted in some cases.

Many, many years ago I recall an old time London gunsmith saying that he preferred to rivet soles as he could make them with a deeper penetration and then temper them to give them the best performance without embrittling the frizzen itself. His rivets were old wrought iron nails drawn round and hammered cold. I cannot personally vouch for their effectiveness but he was a proper apprentice served journeyman gunsmith.

 

[FlinterNick]

And in many cases it allows them to use better steels than their prices could merit otherwise. Many western steels are also made of scrap from such sources. Indian steel was often superior to European steel until the 19th century and places like Jaipur have been formal armouries for centuries. Indian factories make everything for modern military guns from pistols via rifles through artillery to tanks.

Indian made steels are not classified, they simply say high carbon steel that is case hardened, this can mean many things, either way its mystery steel.

Some Indian steels are non magnetic too, which means they mix in stainless with a lot of their mild.

It could be anything, a Russian Tank, a sunken ship, Chernobyl reactor number 4, Get out your Geiger counter, i wouldn’t be shocked if there is some depleted uranium 235 in those things.