Thoughts on the different rifle styles ?

[SmoothboreMurph]

I am usually a smoothbore user when I go hunting and have been using a .75 Cal Brown Bess. Recently though I've been getting the itch to get a flintlock rifle. I am new to muzzleloading and have never owned a ML rifle. I have been looking at the different rifles ( Longrifle, Hawken, European/Jaeger) and to be honest I don't know what direction to go in. I am not a fan of the Hawken style rifles so I've already written them off but now I am between a Long Rifle or a European Rifle. I see a lot of Kibler, TOTW and Chambers mentioned in the Long Rifle category and TRS has a Jaeger kits and a Baker Rifle kit. I've never done a kit before so I don't know how hard they are to make. I don't know the pros and cons of these two rifle styles so I will leave the floor open to input from all who care to help. All input and information is welcomed.

 

[EC121]

There are all degrees of kits. Some are just collections of parts in the same box with a maple blank attached. On the other hand the Kibler kits practically snap together like Legos. It depends on the challenge you are looking for. You can budget about $1000 for a good set of parts and a blank with just the barrel inlet. or you can order a Kibler for about the same money with all the parts plus the inletting done. Be aware that with some pre-inlet "kits" there are some things that don't always line up(the lock inlet for instance) and may need fixing. I would guess that most pre-inlet kits are done on a duplicator. The Kibler series is done on a precision CNC machine. Another option would be some of the production kits. They would be cheaper for a first try.

 

[ppb]

One of your considerations might be what it is that you want to do with the rifle you intend to build. If you are going to hunt (large or small game) with it, caliber could be a factor . Do you have a lock preference? Straight or swamped barrel, etc., etc.. Defining your operating parameters and desired features will help you get started.

Also, speaking as someone who has only been on this forum a short while, one of the great things about this forum is that there are a number of talented and experienced builders that hang-out here and they are willing to share their knowledge. It's a plus!

 

[oldwood]

Caution , ..........Always know that you get one , maybe a .50 longrifle , then , UHOOO..........A squirrel caliber is needed , and then, and then............addiction sets in. Bigger gun rack. Then hanging around w/ questionable old guys that go shooting to excess , and sit in tall ladder stands and sleep. Ohhhhhhhhh the dangers of m/l addiction!!!!

 

[Artificer]

I am usually a smoothbore user when I go hunting and have been using a .75 Cal Brown Bess. Recently though I've been getting the itch to get a flintlock rifle. I am new to muzzleloading and have never owned a ML rifle. I have been looking at the different rifles ( Longrifle, Hawken, European/Jaeger) and to be honest I don't know what direction to go in. I am not a fan of the Hawken style rifles so I've already written them off but now I am between a Long Rifle or a European Rifle. I see a lot of Kibler, TOTW and Chambers mentioned in the Long Rifle category and TRS has a Jaeger kits and a Baker Rifle kit. I've never done a kit before so I don't know how hard they are to make. I don't know the pros and cons of these two rifle styles so I will leave the floor open to input from all who care to help. All input and information is welcomed.

How good are you at using hand tools?

Do you have any gunsmithing experience?

If you have never done a kit and have little or no gunsmithing skills, then the Kibler Kits are your best option, short of paying a builder to build you a rifle, but leaving the stock and metal finishing up to you. This latter option is often referred to as an assembled kit.

OK, Kibler has two basic kits and the main differences are caliber selection and to me the MOST important thing is the Shape of the Butt Plate.

I STRONGLY prefer a fairly flat or not much curved butt plate because I put a rifle into my shoulder pocket. Kibler's best rifle for this is shown directly below:

Colonial American Longrifle Kit +$200 Lock Billed Separately – Kibler's Longrifles (kiblerslongrifles.com)

I have shot quite a few originals and some repro's with SEVERELY curved butt plates like the following, which are intended to be placed on the arm, rather than the shoulder. I HATE this style of butt plate, though some find they like it or at least can live with it. I can't and won't live with it.

Southern Mountain Rifle Kit by Jim Kibler – Kibler's Longrifles (kiblerslongrifles.com)


Is your primary purpose for the rifle hunting, or target shooting or plinking?

We really can't help you more until you give us more info.

Gus

 

[dave_person]

Hi Murph,
You hunt with a Bess so my guess is that you are not much concerned about weight of 8-10 lbs or length 58-62"?

dave

 

[EC121]

For comparison my .58 Brooks/Kibler Colonial weighs 8.6lbs. A smaller caliber would weigh more and not balance as well.

 

[SmoothboreMurph]

How good are you at using hand tools?

Do you have any gunsmithing experience?

If you have never done a kit and have little or no gunsmithing skills, then the Kibler Kits are your best option, short of paying a builder to build you a rifle, but leaving the stock and metal finishing up to you. This latter option is often referred to as an assembled kit.

OK, Kibler has two basic kits and the main differences are caliber selection and to me the MOST important thing is the Shape of the Butt Plate.

I STRONGLY prefer a fairly flat or not much curved butt plate because I put a rifle into my shoulder pocket. Kibler's best rifle for this is shown directly below:
View attachment 94788
Colonial American Longrifle Kit +$200 Lock Billed Separately – Kibler's Longrifles (kiblerslongrifles.com)

I have shot quite a few originals and some repro's with SEVERELY curved butt plates like the following, which are intended to be placed on the arm, rather than the shoulder. I HATE this style of butt plate, though some find they like it or at least can live with it. I can't and won't live with it.

View attachment 94787
Southern Mountain Rifle Kit by Jim Kibler – Kibler's Longrifles (kiblerslongrifles.com)


Is your primary purpose for the rifle hunting, or target shooting or plinking?

We really can't help you more until you give us more info.

Gus

The only purpose for the gun is hunting white tail deer as of now, my Bess has the small game, fowl and turkey locked down.

 

[SmoothboreMurph]

For comparison my .58 Brooks/Kibler Colonial weighs 8.6lbs. A smaller caliber would weigh more and not balance as well.

Weight isn't a concern to me as you can already tell. How long is your Kibler Barrel ? Is .58 Cal as big as you can go or is there a .62 option available ?

 

[SmoothboreMurph]

Hi Murph,
You hunt with a Bess so my guess is that you are not much concerned about weight of 8-10 lbs or length 58-62"?

dave

Not really concerned about weight or length to be honest I just don't really know the best route to take in terms of a European Jaeger style rifle or a longrifle, I am only hunting white tail deer at the moment.

 

[Artificer]

Weight isn't a concern to me as you can already tell. How long is your Kibler Barrel ? Is .58 Cal as big as you can go or is there a .62 option available ?

.58 is the largest caliber Kibler shows in the link I provided. Folks have said that makes the rifle lighter/more handy than in .54 for hunting deer.

Since you won't be shooting the rifle as much as a target rifle and with your experience with the Bess, the .58 sounds like a good option for you.

Gus

 

[Steve Martin]

A Jaeger is more handy in the woods but if you are wanting the "long rifle experience" you can't go wrong with one from Pedersoli unless you do want to build something yourself in which case as others have already mentioned, a Kibler colonial is probably the way to go.

 

[SmoothboreMurph]

A Jaeger is more handy in the woods but if you are wanting the "long rifle experience" you can't go wrong with one from Pedersoli unless you do want to build something yourself in which case as others have already mentioned, a Kibler colonial is probably the way to go.

What is a preferred for your hunt a Jaeger or a Long Rifle ?

 

[EC121]

All the Kibler Colonial barrels are the same length. 43 and a fraction. If you want a European style, something like this would do. This is a .60cal. English stalking rifle by Jerry Scales. Probably based on a Chambers English stalking rifle kit. 31" barrel. Handy as a pocket on a shirt. It could be yours.

 

[TreeMan]

For hunting deer I like my 1803 Harpers ferry.

 

[Spikebuck]

I STRONGLY prefer a fairly flat or not much curved butt plate because I put a rifle into my shoulder pocket.

I agree with Gus on this one, but everyone is individual and will have their preferences. With 21 years of traditional muzzleloading behind me now and having owned many styles of guns, I have concluded that I like the earlier styled longrifles with the wider and flatter buttplates as well as "rounding" to the top of the comb side-to-side. The wide and flat buttplates distribute the recoil better and as Gus states, fits into the shoulder pocket instead of the arm. Also...look at comb designs. You will see some schools of longrifles will have, for lack of a better term, "sharp" and very distinct edges on them running nearly the length of the comb vs being more "rounded" over the top of the comb. I have found I prefer the rounded top for comfort as that recoil partly transfers to your welded cheek on the stock. The sharp edges whollop me right in the cheekbone and the more rounded combs do not.

Example: My Mike Brooks Early Colonial. Note the flat buttplate, the "smooth vs sharp" edge along the comb, and the butt stock direction being inline with the direction of the recoil. These all make this a VERY comfortable rifle to shoot. It's .54 caliber....my favorite for large midwestern whitetails.

This is not a lot different in basic design than you see on many Jaeger rifles. This makes sense to me because early gunsmiths that immigrated would have been used to Jaegers, so it seems natural that their first guns built in America would emulate those features.

I built and hunted with a Jaeger for a time. This was also a very comfortable gun even though it was .62 caliber and I was shooting 100 grs of powder. This was built from a Track of the Wolf kit and was my first build. Frankly, this is a more difficult kit than others I've built...even others from ToTW....due to a lot of inletting of complex shapes, work on the swamped barrel inlet, and a completely unshaped forestock.

All that said, I have hunted with and killed more deer with my .54 caliber Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken than any other gun I've owned. I don't find the buttplate of a Hawken as comfortable to shoot, but with the heavy clothing I'm usually wearing during our normally cold deer season, it has never been a problem.

For the choices you are interested in, an early longrifle or a jaeger probably won't have a lot of difference in shooting style. My one recommendation is to get a swamped barrel on whatever it is you end up with. You won't regret it for the exceptional balance they provide.

 

[SmoothboreMurph]

All the Kibler Colonial barrels are the same length. 43 and a fraction. If you want a European style, something like this would do. This is a .60cal. English stalking rifle by Jerry Scales. Probably based on a Chambers English stalking rifle kit. 31" barrel. Handy as a pocket on a shirt. It could be yours.
View attachment 94836

Oh yea ? How many smackaroos do I need to send to the slaughter ?

 

[54ball]

I am usually a smoothbore user when I go hunting and have been using a .75 Cal Brown Bess. Recently though I've been getting the itch to get a flintlock rifle. I am new to muzzleloading and have never owned a ML rifle. I have been looking at the different rifles ( Longrifle, Hawken, European/Jaeger) and to be honest I don't know what direction to go in. I am not a fan of the Hawken style rifles so I've already written them off but now I am between a Long Rifle or a European Rifle. I see a lot of Kibler, TOTW and Chambers mentioned in the Long Rifle category and TRS has a Baker Rifle kit. I've never done a kit before so I don't know how hard they are to make. I don't know the pros and cons of these two rifle styles so I will leave the floor open to input from all who care to help. All input and information is welcomed.

If you want to see if building is for you, get a Traditions Kentucky Kit in .50 percussion. It's a good introduction and they really can be nice guns. Forget the flintlock if you go this route. Just get the percussion kit from Bass Pro.

Another option is a "in the white factory gun" like a 1842 rifled musket, 53 Enfield or any Civil War rifle offered in the white. These are authentic and really just need final fit and finish.
Still another option is finding a neglected gun (say an old TC or CVA) that needs some work...this is something to cut your teeth on without that much investment.

^^^ These are some options without too much investment.

On the other hand the Kibler kits practically snap together like Legos.

No sir!
Yeah, they may snap together but they can just as easily snap apart! There's no free pass.

The traditional Kits...TOW, Chambers ect ect ect.... Are about 75 to maybe 85 percent done. What this means is that last 25% is undone. That last 25% is the hardest part.
Kiblers...95% done. That last 5% is still the most difficult part. That last 5% makes or breaks a rifle. You can easily blow it and blow it pretty bad.

Another thing...When you build from a blank, even a kit, you work into the project. The longer you go, the more skill you get. By the time you get to that last 5%....the rough work is done and you are on the delicate work. You worked into it. There are stages in a build when you can be fumble thumbs. The last 5% like a Kibler is not the time.

Many who have ordered a Kibler have opened the box, looked at it, closed the box and found a builder to assemble it for them or....they found and paid for a professional class where they assembled it under a builder. . It's just too much money to risk.

Kiblers are great!!!! I recommend them because they are pretty much done. You have to understand what that means. They are not Legos.

For Kiblers and traditional kits....You are going to have to invest in tools, books, and supplies.
You can find a lot of good used semi custom/custom guns at that price point.

Rifle Shop....first time build......Not a good Idea IMHO.

Be honest with yourself.
Do you want to learn how to build a rifle? or....Do you just want a nice longrifle?
These are two separate pursuits.
If you want a nice rifle, just buy you a nice completed rifle. Either commission a build or find a nice one used.
I know a nice rifle is into the thousands...but honestly, it's cheaper in the long run just to buy one finished.
If indeed you want to build....Then jump in and learn and start learning and buying.
The jest of my post is.....

You will not save a dime by building a nice longrifle.

 

[SmoothboreMurph]

If you want to see if building is for you, get a Traditions Kentucky Kit in .50 percussion. It's a good introduction and they really can be nice guns. Forget the flintlock if you go this route. Just get the percussion kit from Bass Pro.

Another option is a "in the white factory gun" like a 1842 rifled musket, 53 Enfield or any Civil War rifle offered in the white. These are authentic and really just need final fit and finish.
Still another option is finding a neglected gun (say an old TC or CVA) that needs some work...this is something to cut your teeth on without that much investment.

^^^ These are some options without too much investment.

No sir!
Yeah, they may snap together but they can just as easily snap apart! There's no free pass.

The traditional Kits...TOW, Chambers ect ect ect.... Are about 75 to maybe 85 percent done. What this means is that last 25% is undone. That last 25% is the hardest part.
Kiblers...95% done. That last 5% is still the most difficult part. That last 5% makes or breaks a rifle. You can easily blow it and blow it pretty bad.

Another thing...When you build from a blank, even a kit, you work into the project. The longer you go, the more skill you get. By the time you get to that last 5%....the rough work is done and you are on the delicate work. You worked into it. There are stages in a build when you can be fumble thumbs. The last 5% like a Kibler is not the time.

Many who have ordered a Kibler have opened the box, looked at it, closed the box and found a builder to assemble it for them or....they found and paid for a professional class where they assembled it under a builder. . It's just too much money to risk.

Kiblers are great!!!! I recommend them because they are pretty much done. You have to understand what that means. They are not Legos.

For Kiblers and traditional kits....You are going to have to invest in tools, books, and supplies.
You can find a lot of good used semi custom/custom guns at that price point.

Rifle Shop....first time build......Not a good Idea IMHO.

Be honest with yourself.
Do you want to learn how to build a rifle? or....Do you just want a nice longrifle?
These are two separate pursuits.
If you want a nice rifle, just buy you a nice completed rifle. Either commission a build or find a nice one used.
I know a nice rifle is into the thousands...but honestly, it's cheaper in the long run just to buy one finished.
If indeed you want to build....Then jump in and learn and start learning and buying.
The jest of my post is.....

You will not save a dime by building a nice longrifle.

I dont want anything nice and decorative to be honest, really don't even want shiny brass. Just a rifle that can shoot farther than my smoothbore. The most popular I have found are Longrifles, Jaegers/Euros and Hawkens. I am not a fan of the Hawken so naturally I now gravitate towards a Jaeger/Euro or a Longrifle. I also want to stay with flintlock, a good buddy of mine has a Traditions Kentucky .50cal Percussion Cap and I am not a fan of it. I looked at the Kibler website and the prices of an unfinished gun is too much for me, in the white is over 1800USD when all the fees come about. I will probably do as you said and just stalk around for a second hand rifle.

 

[54ball]

I dont want anything nice and decorative to be honest, really don't even want shiny brass. Just a rifle that can shoot farther than my smoothbore. The most popular I have found are Longrifles, Jaegers/Euros and Hawkens. I am not a fan of the Hawken so naturally I now gravitate towards a Jaeger/Euro or a Longrifle. I also want to stay with flintlock, a good buddy of mine has a Traditions Kentucky .50cal Percussion Cap and I am not a fan of it. I looked at the Kibler website and the prices of an unfinished gun is too much for me, in the white is over 1800USD when all the fees come about. I will probably do as you said and just stalk around for a second hand rifle.

My passion was for early Southern guns. Virginia...NC...TN
I love the early Virginias.
I love the 1790s Early Southern Rifle. I did lots of research on these. I got one about 65 percent done from a blank.
It was going to be spectacular. Very plain but....very period.

Sadly I had to walk away from all of this. Who knows if it and the other guns I started will ever be done.
Many reasons...
We quite literally bought the/a farm and moved to another county.

In 2003 I had a bad head injury. I am susceptible to vertigo. Sometimes it lasts days at a time. Now I have to wear readers or stronger to see. I cant see to read without readers. Doing rifle work or even mechanic work on the 51 Ford... taking glasses on and off...up and down....different positions....makes me sick.
Here's the thing. I have talent. It was natural too me. My first rifle was praised by many pro gunbuilders. They could not believe it was my first. I walked away from it.

Change of life...
Disability....
just plain loss of interest...

There's many reasons why things do not work out.
I probably have about 5K in gun parts alone. All of it is top shelf stuff too. This is not counting tools, books, education, travel to shows and all the time.
Sometimes building just does not work out.

It sure was fun though to turn this... Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
into this...
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
or this...
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
to this
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
finally to this...
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr