Tipi

[Claude Mathis]

I am doing my research to select how I want to paint the tipi.

Unless you are very well-versed in NA religion & symbology, I would avoid it. Even then, it is a great way to offend tribal members, especially if you are of anglo descent. I would suggest that you do not paint the tipi.

Very good advice. Do not paint it with any "symbols".

IMO, there's no need for a "White man" to paint it at all. White men playing Indian can be offensive to some, so why risk it? I think it's okay if you're 10 years old, but not once we know better. :wink:

 

[tenngun]

your right dan George, sorry iron eyes

 

[Junior1942]

True story: A crosseyed Choctaw friend of mine once met Iron Eyes Cody. He offered his hand and said, "Hello. I'm Iron Eyes Cody."

She shook his hand and replied, "Glad to meet you. I'm crosseyed Rosie."

 

[zimmerstutzen]

There's a great many of us "anglos" of mixed blood. In my genealogy I can trace back to enough to claim a mere 16th Delaware, but from a clan that either was lost through assimilation or absorbed into one of the three clans left. There is next to nothing culturally left of that clan except a few scarce historical references that they existed. I have even been to a reservation with some Delaware (in ND) and for my inquiry about the past, was treated like manure. a Lakota gent overheard and apologized for the rudeness.

I wasn't looking for anything except a little insight into an ancestor's family. Can't imagine how I would have been treated if I had some sacred symbol on my truck or tent.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I am doing my research to select how I want to paint the tipi.

Unless you are very well-versed in NA religion & symbology, I would avoid it. Even then, it is a great way to offend tribal members, especially if you are of anglo descent. I would suggest that you do not paint the tipi.

We are back on this subject.
The tipi is your property, paint whatever you want on it. Someone trying to restrict your rights because somone else might be offended is a very offensive thing to me and probably should be to you.
The few contacts I have had with American indians they were extremly offensive in their behavior and words towards white Americans.
I have great respect for all peoples as long as they behave respectfully as well.

 

[Black Hand]

We are back on this subject.
The tipi is your property, paint whatever you want on it. Someone trying to restrict your rights because somone else might be offended is a very offensive thing to me and probably should be to you.

So it is OK to do something offensive towards a entire group just because a few individuals ****** you off at some time? This would be equivalent to flying a Nazi flag in a Jewish neighborhood or burning a cross on church property. Yes, it might be protected (barely) by free-speech but it is still offensive.

 

I am doing my research to select how I want to paint the tipi.

Unless you are very well-versed in NA religion & symbology, I would avoid it. Even then, it is a great way to offend tribal members, especially if you are of anglo descent. I would suggest that you do not paint the tipi.

We are back on this subject.
The tipi is your property, paint whatever you want on it. Someone trying to restrict your rights because somone else might be offended is a very offensive thing to me and probably should be to you.
The few contacts I have had with American indians they were extremly offensive in their behavior and words towards white Americans.
I have great respect for all peoples as long as they behave respectfully as well.

You sound like the kind of guy who would wear a swastika to a Bar Mitzvah and tell the people there to just "get over it". Sensitive guy. :shake:

 

[necchi]

The few contacts I have had with American indians they were extremly offensive in their behavior and words towards white Americans.

Well if you acted towards those American Indians in person as you do here when we speak about respecting a culture,,,
,,it's no wonder you found them to be offensive.

I've met a few foul old white men too,, but I don't judge them all by those few bad contacts

What did you do? say something like,
"Hiya Chief, have your smoke this morning?, Nice lookin squaw ya got there,,"
"Hey, can ya make me some Moc's? I'll pay cash"

 

[Rifleman1776]

The few contacts I have had with American indians they were extremly offensive in their behavior and words towards white Americans.

Well if you acted towards those American Indians in person as you do here when we speak about respecting a culture,,,
,,it's no wonder you found them to be offensive.

I've met a few foul old white men too,, but I don't judge them all by those few bad contacts

What did you do? say something like,
"Hiya Chief, have your smoke this morning?, Nice lookin squaw ya got there,,"
"Hey, can ya make me some Moc's? I'll pay cash"

The contacts I have mostly had was in tours and I just stood listening to nasty comments about whites instead of a historical tour. Other 'contacts' were on the street walking past loiterers who had comments to make. I don't believe I have ever spoken to a true American indian.
I showed no disrespect, it was purely one sided spewing of gross disrespect from them.
To answer your rhetorical questions: No to all. I would never do anything like that.
Not asked, but for what it is worth: I once belonged to a group that helped support an indian school in Oklahoma.

 

[necchi]

Well now I'm beginning to understand.

In my community there is a Native American Center and the University has focused classes. There are opportunities to participate in history seminars as well as Native arts and harvesting of natural resources.

There are large holdings of tribal lands that you have to ask permission to hunt, fish or harvest. Having a few names to drop, or exact detail of a seminar or two helps you gain access to said lands.

There's some places down in Mpls I wouldn't care to hang around because of the un-savory characters and Yes, you don't want to be around when a bunch of people are ****** off about something,,

Thus through participation, you "learn" to have and act with respect and for the most part you'll get the same back.

It's kind of a neat experience to be "cleansed" and allowed to watch some of the things that are for the most part private,,

With that, I'd like to share with you that some of us white folks do have a clue what's happening with current real live respectful American Indians, and I'd like to ask you to try to understand at least that much, and Please let us share that respect with others.
You can continue to have your feelings about these types of subjects as you will, but could you not encourage others to have disregard for another culture because of your personal bad experiences?

 

[Billnpatti]

I don't know about anyone else on this forum but I for one am getting pretty darned tired of all of this political correctness. What have we become that we spend all of our time walking on eggshells worrying about offending someone who is just looking for something, anything, about which he/she can become offended. What about me taking offense about them constantly taking offense about some little transgression. We are always about to manure in our pants worrying about offending some group of Muslims, blacks, Native Americans, Hispanics, or what have you. I'm not insensitive nor am I inclined to impolite actions but I am damned tired of walking on these eggshells. If I were to choose to dress up as an Indian (many white folks do) and have a tipi and wanted to paint it as part of my pretend experience, then why can't they just accept it for what it is.....some old white fart playing dress-up and not take offense where none is intended. If I were to wear a piece of Indian clothing such as a war shirt as part of my pretend experience, why can't they just take it for what it is.....an old white fart playing dress-up. If we are to live together, we had damned well better get over this business of looking under every rock and behind every tree for some reason, any reason, to become incensed. Let's just all back off, take a breath and quit looking for a reason to get our panties in a wad. Maybe, just maybe, if we quit looking for some stinkin' petty reason to take offense, we just might find that we can get along pretty well together.

 

[Billnpatti]

Oh, I forgot to add, if you are one of the hypersensitive types and found my tirade offensive and you feel your panties starting wad up on you just remember, it's only the opinion of an old fart...... and I'm past caring. But 'scuse me, anyway. :hatsoff:

 

[Claude Mathis]

What have we become that we spend all of our time walking on eggshells worrying about offending someone...

There's a wide margin between that and showing a little respect when warranted. IMO :wink:

 

[tenngun]

I am with you. Back in the 60s a boy scout group learned some Indian dances. They were asked to teach a dance to Hopis. After that they were asked to never dance it again since it was a sacred dance. It was so sacred they forgot how to do it until the boy scouts taught them again. A white man with an Indian wife may have had a painted lodge. She would have owned the lodge, and just as if she had been married in her tribe she may have expressed her pride in her man by painting or letting him paint her lodge. In truth early photos of Indian camps don't show a lot of painted tipis, and in catlins paintings the most on tipis were some stick figures. A MM living in a tipi would most likely be in a plain lodge, on the other hand.... it is your tipi, and if you paint it and some one gets insulted by it it is there problem not yours. I made a beaded shirt for a man one time copied from an original. It had white beads with black swazestickers. This man wasn't a Nazi, nor was the Indian that wore it first. The Buddist that used this weren't Nazis either. I am proud of the south the flying of a confederate flag doesn't mean I hate negroes or want to enslave them. When you do something with out wanting to insult any one, and someone gets insulted tell that person how to make a suppository.

 

[Black Hand]

Not every tipi was painted, though a few were and were considered "medicine" obtained through dreams or spiritual power given/aquired by being the keeper of a sacred bundle.

Respect the culture. If you wish to paint yours, PLEASE consult with tribal members from your tribe of interest. Respect them and their beliefs and they may help you. Don't just go slapping some paint on your canvas because you may piss someone off...

The swastika was co-opted from previously-existing religious symbology.

 

[tenngun]

Yes the paintings were of the mans deeds. As I said it was her lodge ,she either did the paintings out of her pride for her man, or let him paint her lodge. She could have done the same for a white man. She would not ask any ones permission to paint her lodge, nor does a modern tipi owner need any ones permission. People who would get insulted by something on someone else's lodge has the problem, not the lodge owner. All in all to be most H C your best bet would be unpainted. That said its your lodge, some one in days of old would have treated his lodge like he wanted and damn be he who didn't like it.

 

The rationalization and justification for being rude here is amazing.

You fart in someone's face and if they don't like it, too bad. :rotf:

You guys are a class act.

 

[tenngun]

No I'm farting in my house and some ones telling me they don't like the sound so I shouldn't do it. I don't like Rap music but I don't tell any one to keep their car windows up so I cant hear it at the stop light. Nor do I play my fathers and sons so loud they have to listen to it. But you cant tell me something I do to my lodge or gun or shirt is insulting to some one else just because the other person can see it. This is the type of thinking that leads to taking down public Christmas displays since atheist don't like to see them.

 

[Rod Lassey]

She would not ask any ones permission to paint her lodge, nor does a modern tipi owner need any ones permission.

Actually, yes a Native woman would have asked permission---from tribal elders, bundle keepers, shamans, etc. And they still do---women making a star quilt or beading a design today will ALWAYS ask permission of the appropriate persons, and offer tobacco. Many of these things were overseen by societies or guilds, and the appropriate ceremony is to be followed.

By the way, it's not "walking on eggshells", it's called being polite and asking first----something sadly lacking in today's world.

Rod

 

[Black Hand]

She would not ask any ones permission to paint her lodge, nor does a modern tipi owner need any ones permission.

Actually, it needed to be overseen and approved by a spiritual leader of the tribe.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/pla/ont/ont18.htm
http://arc.lib.montana.edu/indian-great-plains/ewers.php
The Blackfeet treasured painted lodges as sacred objects. An origin legend relates how each painted lodge was acquired by its first human owner. Many painted tipis, according to these legends, were given to their first Indianowners in dreams or visions. In such a dream, the original animal owner of the lodge appeared to the sleeper and promised to give him some of his power, which included his painted lodge and other objects sacred to him. The animal told the receiver how to paint the lodge and how to make the other sacred object sassociated with it. When the man awoke, he proceeded to follow these instructions.