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Toby and his "attitude" have been beaten to death on this form. This is nothing new or worth your time (or ours).
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Toby Bridges
- Thread starter CoyoteJoe
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I have shot or seen shot quite a few deer, 150 maybe, never kept a count. Widest possible variety of firearms, but no bulleted MLs.
The typical MT mule deer will make 40 yards unless shot with something like a light bullet in a 25-06 and this ruins most of the front of the deer. 7mm mag? 40 yards. 50 cal RB? 40 yards. 6.5 x55 40 yards, 30-06? 40 yards. Bigger bore RBs? 40 yards. Some less some significantly more.
I have had them cover 200 shot with a RB perfect kill shots, one a MD with a 50, one a Whitetail. both with in 50 yards . I shot a buck at 140 with a 50 RB and you guessed it, he made about 40 yards. The 38-40 loaded with BP, real pop-gun very poor wound channels, MD buck double lung away from the heart, yep about 40 yards, 54 ML pistol? Heart shot at about 25 yards, deer ran about 40 yards and crashed.
I have had them go a lot farther shot with a 308 that was a diagonal shot that got one lung, range was maybe 150 yards. Tracked it around a mountain side for maybe 500-600 yards and finally it was anchored by a running shot by one of the guides, me, using a 400 gr speer at about 1600 from a 45-70. The deer went another 50+ yards and fell and I then head shot it. The 308 is no popgun and the 400 gr speer at 1600 is really not a popgun.
I shot a WT doe at 300 yards with the 6.5x55 and a 140 gr SP. This is a VERY effective deer cartridge. Bullet broke the upper front leg bone and passed through the pericardium just behind the arteries bruising the heart. Deer ran about 100 yards and just as it was hidden by terrain I saw hoofs in the air. Dead deer. But there is a buck hanging around so I don't want to risk her possibly getting up, she was out of sight now, so I wait a few minutes till he quits looking at her from 15-20 yards away. He leaves and I approach she is laying with her head up so I head shoot her.
I had a 44-90 Sharps, used 92 gr of FF and 1:40 alloy PP bullet with a BIG flat point. It was a real killer. 40 yard neck shots that missed the bone would blow all the meat off the tendons for 2-3 inches either side of the bullet path. Shot a doe MD at about 50 yards double lung. Deer ran about 150 yards. So a 44-90 is not sufficient for deer?
I shot a MD doe at about 40 yards with a 16 bore rifle, .662 lead ball at 1600 MV. Ball struck "base of the throat" just to the side of the wind pipe. Make a large entrance wound though the hard tissue of the brisket made a 3"+ hole where the upper part of the heart was and stopped after about 30" of pentration. The pointed thing at the bottom of the hole is the remains of the heart.
There was enough pressure in the deers chest to blow blood, fat and tissue back out the bullet hole in a trail about 2 ft long back toward the gun. Deer turned 90 degrees and ran 55 long steps. Massive blood loss, could see the blood pouring from the wound as she ran (not very well but faster than I could run).
I suppose its possible that some pyrodex loaded saboted pistol bullet shooting thing with a plastic stock may have done better but I doubt it. I am confidant the Maxi would not have done as well. Ball weight is identical to the 54 maxi BTW 437 gr vs 440 for the maxi.
Toby has been virulently hostile to the RB for decades. It is impossible to believe anything he says and people need to get the place and date where this test took place if he has a place and date.
This is the lungs from a deer I shot at 60 yards with my 50 cal.
the ball struck on the shoulder blade close to the joint, broke the blade full length, shattered the socket to little chunks did this in the chest cavity and then EXITED the deer just in front of the offside shoulder. I screwed up the shot or I would not have struck the shoulder blade, but do-do occurs, I have an excuse but the ultimate fault is with the trigger puller, I screwed up. Deer lost all use of its front legs but by use of her hind legs made about 30 yards down a pretty steep slope before becoming immobile and dying.
Now since this deer traveled a shorter distance does this mean the 50 is more effective than the 16 bore??
I think we all know the answer to this.
Almost forgot. Sister shot a doe this fall with her 7mm-08. Deer ran and fell but kept its head up, Pat head shot her as she approached. Was kinda surprised the deer was still alive since she knew the shot was good. In dressing the deer she figures the heart would be edible. Wrong heart was destroyed. Deer just did not know it was supposed to be dead.
Every animal is different. They all react differently. Some are either already pumped up, the two I have shot with a RB (50 and 54) than made 200 yards and the one I shot with 44-90 that ran 150 were ALL pumped up. Someone had spooked the deer I shot with the 50, I was sure the WT I shot with the 54 was hyper and I had killed a buck with a neck shot within feet of the one I shot with the 44-90 but she stopped and paused and I dropped another round in and shot her.
Dan
The typical MT mule deer will make 40 yards unless shot with something like a light bullet in a 25-06 and this ruins most of the front of the deer. 7mm mag? 40 yards. 50 cal RB? 40 yards. 6.5 x55 40 yards, 30-06? 40 yards. Bigger bore RBs? 40 yards. Some less some significantly more.
I have had them cover 200 shot with a RB perfect kill shots, one a MD with a 50, one a Whitetail. both with in 50 yards . I shot a buck at 140 with a 50 RB and you guessed it, he made about 40 yards. The 38-40 loaded with BP, real pop-gun very poor wound channels, MD buck double lung away from the heart, yep about 40 yards, 54 ML pistol? Heart shot at about 25 yards, deer ran about 40 yards and crashed.
I have had them go a lot farther shot with a 308 that was a diagonal shot that got one lung, range was maybe 150 yards. Tracked it around a mountain side for maybe 500-600 yards and finally it was anchored by a running shot by one of the guides, me, using a 400 gr speer at about 1600 from a 45-70. The deer went another 50+ yards and fell and I then head shot it. The 308 is no popgun and the 400 gr speer at 1600 is really not a popgun.
I shot a WT doe at 300 yards with the 6.5x55 and a 140 gr SP. This is a VERY effective deer cartridge. Bullet broke the upper front leg bone and passed through the pericardium just behind the arteries bruising the heart. Deer ran about 100 yards and just as it was hidden by terrain I saw hoofs in the air. Dead deer. But there is a buck hanging around so I don't want to risk her possibly getting up, she was out of sight now, so I wait a few minutes till he quits looking at her from 15-20 yards away. He leaves and I approach she is laying with her head up so I head shoot her.
I had a 44-90 Sharps, used 92 gr of FF and 1:40 alloy PP bullet with a BIG flat point. It was a real killer. 40 yard neck shots that missed the bone would blow all the meat off the tendons for 2-3 inches either side of the bullet path. Shot a doe MD at about 50 yards double lung. Deer ran about 150 yards. So a 44-90 is not sufficient for deer?
I shot a MD doe at about 40 yards with a 16 bore rifle, .662 lead ball at 1600 MV. Ball struck "base of the throat" just to the side of the wind pipe. Make a large entrance wound though the hard tissue of the brisket made a 3"+ hole where the upper part of the heart was and stopped after about 30" of pentration. The pointed thing at the bottom of the hole is the remains of the heart.
There was enough pressure in the deers chest to blow blood, fat and tissue back out the bullet hole in a trail about 2 ft long back toward the gun. Deer turned 90 degrees and ran 55 long steps. Massive blood loss, could see the blood pouring from the wound as she ran (not very well but faster than I could run).
I suppose its possible that some pyrodex loaded saboted pistol bullet shooting thing with a plastic stock may have done better but I doubt it. I am confidant the Maxi would not have done as well. Ball weight is identical to the 54 maxi BTW 437 gr vs 440 for the maxi.
Toby has been virulently hostile to the RB for decades. It is impossible to believe anything he says and people need to get the place and date where this test took place if he has a place and date.
This is the lungs from a deer I shot at 60 yards with my 50 cal.
the ball struck on the shoulder blade close to the joint, broke the blade full length, shattered the socket to little chunks did this in the chest cavity and then EXITED the deer just in front of the offside shoulder. I screwed up the shot or I would not have struck the shoulder blade, but do-do occurs, I have an excuse but the ultimate fault is with the trigger puller, I screwed up. Deer lost all use of its front legs but by use of her hind legs made about 30 yards down a pretty steep slope before becoming immobile and dying.
Now since this deer traveled a shorter distance does this mean the 50 is more effective than the 16 bore??
I think we all know the answer to this.
Almost forgot. Sister shot a doe this fall with her 7mm-08. Deer ran and fell but kept its head up, Pat head shot her as she approached. Was kinda surprised the deer was still alive since she knew the shot was good. In dressing the deer she figures the heart would be edible. Wrong heart was destroyed. Deer just did not know it was supposed to be dead.
Every animal is different. They all react differently. Some are either already pumped up, the two I have shot with a RB (50 and 54) than made 200 yards and the one I shot with 44-90 that ran 150 were ALL pumped up. Someone had spooked the deer I shot with the 50, I was sure the WT I shot with the 54 was hyper and I had killed a buck with a neck shot within feet of the one I shot with the 44-90 but she stopped and paused and I dropped another round in and shot her.
Dan
CaptainKirk
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Nice pics and description, Dan!
Too bad you, I and the other 18,000 members of this forum are so errantly mistaken and unethical.
Not to mention our forebears.. :hmm:
One question remains...
If Mr. Bridges is so "ethical", why is he hunting with a ML in the first place? :idunno:
Too bad you, I and the other 18,000 members of this forum are so errantly mistaken and unethical.
Not to mention our forebears.. :hmm:
One question remains...
If Mr. Bridges is so "ethical", why is he hunting with a ML in the first place? :idunno:
paulvallandigham
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The few deere taken with RBS in this hunt hardly constitute a valid Scientific Study of any sort. He may want to call it that, but no one who conducts serious scientific inquiry would take him seriously. We have more examples of Deer taken with RBs, this season, posted here on the forum, than are in his "study".
If a deer is shot through the lungs just after having taken a breath, the deer can run a long way before the brain is deprived of oxygen, and the deer becomes unconscious and dies. If you shoot a deer before it inhales, through both lungs, its difficult to believe that the lungs will expand at all if it tries to breath in, and brain death from lack of oxygen is near immediate. If you hit the heart, stopping it, death comes within 15 seconds in the best of conditions, simply because no oxygen can be pumped to the brain, and blood pressure is dropping because of the wounds. A deer can cover a lot of ground with fresh oxygen in its brain, or with one working lung and a working heart.
With those biological FACTS in mind, the "study" he claims to have done becomes even less impressive. These are the kind of factors that can explain why some deer can run far, and others don't. Like others here, I want to know what kind of experience the shooters using MLers had before this "hunt". And, more specific, what kind of experience and training did they have shooting Traditional MLers and RBs. There are lots of "Clowns" walking around the woods armed with all kinds of stuff they just bought, or otherwise with which they can't hit the broad side of a barn. Some even have scopes on them.
And, I want to know who they had tracking the deer, that any of them got away. Its Rather embarrassing if this was a hunt orchestrated by the State Game Department, don't you think? What Proof do they have the "lost " deer was even hit?
Mr. Bridges is a bottom feeder, of the worst sort, and he has no credibility among serious hunters, or shooters. This "Study" is just another example of how he looks for and even manufactures "evidence" to support his bias against RBs. The Brady Group could hardly find a better "friend" than him.
If a deer is shot through the lungs just after having taken a breath, the deer can run a long way before the brain is deprived of oxygen, and the deer becomes unconscious and dies. If you shoot a deer before it inhales, through both lungs, its difficult to believe that the lungs will expand at all if it tries to breath in, and brain death from lack of oxygen is near immediate. If you hit the heart, stopping it, death comes within 15 seconds in the best of conditions, simply because no oxygen can be pumped to the brain, and blood pressure is dropping because of the wounds. A deer can cover a lot of ground with fresh oxygen in its brain, or with one working lung and a working heart.
With those biological FACTS in mind, the "study" he claims to have done becomes even less impressive. These are the kind of factors that can explain why some deer can run far, and others don't. Like others here, I want to know what kind of experience the shooters using MLers had before this "hunt". And, more specific, what kind of experience and training did they have shooting Traditional MLers and RBs. There are lots of "Clowns" walking around the woods armed with all kinds of stuff they just bought, or otherwise with which they can't hit the broad side of a barn. Some even have scopes on them.
And, I want to know who they had tracking the deer, that any of them got away. Its Rather embarrassing if this was a hunt orchestrated by the State Game Department, don't you think? What Proof do they have the "lost " deer was even hit?
Mr. Bridges is a bottom feeder, of the worst sort, and he has no credibility among serious hunters, or shooters. This "Study" is just another example of how he looks for and even manufactures "evidence" to support his bias against RBs. The Brady Group could hardly find a better "friend" than him.
IMO, this is either fiction or loosely based on a controlled hunt that mr. bridges heard about. i base this on the statement that the prb came in last in efficiency, he intends to "bring it to a boil" the issue of state game depts allowing more and more modern ML into the fray. mr. bridges clearly has a biased view of the matter, aside from his occupation, which, even if he liked shooting the prb, he would likely not be allowed to say publicly. i'm sure the man has a family to feed like the rest of us. i would like to note that i don't know the man and am not intentionally questioning his character or morality.
IBID
IBID
To those of us who know better we should not even bother with responding to these statement .He is very bias on this subject and does not have any idea what he is talking about. I know that he has not spent very much time behind a RB shooter ML his words tell me that. I am not going to give this thread any more of my time. :bull: IT IS ALL :yakyak:
HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU ALL
HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU ALL
Guys, you don't understand. It's not how you get the deer, or what you use, as long as you get the deer. Of course a scoped inline using modern bullets and powder has a big advantage over a flintlock shooting round ball with a non adjustable site. Face it, these people are not willing to spend the time to figure out a real gun. They just don't get it. There are a lot of Toby Bridges out there. flinch
123.DieselBenz
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snake-eyes said:
I've never heard of him either! It does sound like a very biased report, with lots of FACTS left out. :nono:
But I did learn something . . . It seems that if you have an inline you can use smokeless powder? If that is the case why bother? Mights well get my 270 out.
In my opinion a person who reloads cases has to be very careful in making sure everything is done right, the reloading bench with the proper tools makes this possible (but it is not for every idiot that wants to shoot a gun, as it takes brains and concentration) However a person with a muzzle loading gun is basically "reloading" every shot as it is needed, so much more concentration is needed, as I can imagine a "double or triple load" of smokeless could ruin someone's day! :idunno:
What I'm trying to say is that with a ML that it is a more specialized loading process, and demands not only full attention, but knowledge of what and why you are doing it, not "hey Billy Bob you just put two or three of these pellets in then you slide the blue thingy in. then put this primer back here, and when the crosshairs line up with the target/deer you pull the trigger" :youcrazy:
Yes there are a few more steps than loading a metallic cartridge in my 270, but they are expecting similar result in accuracy! So they should be in with the regular gun hunting group. (or given there own weekend!) Just my non humble opinion! :wink:
I hope he does bring it to a boil!! Than someone can bring to a boil the fact that in some states there area’s for Shotgun/Muzzleloader “ONLY”. Why can an inline be used in these areas legally but I can NOT go out with my trapdoor in 50-70 or my Rolling Block in 45-70?? The inline is ballistically hotter! Soooooo, I say YES!! Mr Bridges, bring it to a boil!! :hmm:
His positions have no personal foundation in character or fact...they've flip-flopped back and forth over the past 20+ years depending on who's payroll he's on.
The bad news is that the vast majority of people coming up through the normal centerfire ranks, buy into the manure he's spewing because they haven't yet learned and don't know any better at that point in their hunting lives...heck, even in the traditional fraternity there are often unsubstatiated theories pressed forward...and again, only those who don't know any better buy into it...the good news is they eventually see through it as they gain personal hands on experience.
But to a great extent, people are lazy and want an easy way to drag out a buck...and if that means encroaching into the traditional ML season using modern high tech scoped MLs with centerfire ballistics, that don't require much thought or cleaning, killing unsuspecting deer standing knee deep in corn piles at 150 yards, they'll do it every time...they just want bragging rights and to high five their buddies...the real shame of it is they really believe "that's hunting"...whole generations now have grown up into that mentality and largely because people like this thread references continue to spew dishonest poison.
:shake:
The bad news is that the vast majority of people coming up through the normal centerfire ranks, buy into the manure he's spewing because they haven't yet learned and don't know any better at that point in their hunting lives...heck, even in the traditional fraternity there are often unsubstatiated theories pressed forward...and again, only those who don't know any better buy into it...the good news is they eventually see through it as they gain personal hands on experience.
But to a great extent, people are lazy and want an easy way to drag out a buck...and if that means encroaching into the traditional ML season using modern high tech scoped MLs with centerfire ballistics, that don't require much thought or cleaning, killing unsuspecting deer standing knee deep in corn piles at 150 yards, they'll do it every time...they just want bragging rights and to high five their buddies...the real shame of it is they really believe "that's hunting"...whole generations now have grown up into that mentality and largely because people like this thread references continue to spew dishonest poison.
:shake:
poordevil
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I am sure it all depends on the animal. We all have stories where we have seen the animal appear to defy the shot. I once shot a Jackrabbit between the shoulder blades with a .303 British at about 15 yards. It was my last bullet and at the shot the rabbit ran off! I thought "How could I have missed?" Well the bunny was just out of sight, having ran about 10 yards. I bet even Mr. Bridges would consider the .303 British adequate for Jackrabbit. Yet it still traveled a ways before giving up the ghost.
P
P
JMinnerath
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After reading some of the above; who cares?
walruskid1
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the man thrives on controversy. he is also a paid shill. i agree he can't be taken seriously. too bad the general hunting crowd does fall for his ramblings.
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Old TB has been around for a long time and was a PRO Traditional RB Shooter back in the 70's and early 80's!.......Then a magazine or two, and a few other publication's let him play Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck, but with a theme of muzzleloading and now he became a "So-Called" clearing house for the In-Line industry!
JMinnerath
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I got thrown off again by how this forum presents new posts, so my comment probably seemed trite.
I have actually read some of this guys rambling attacks on traditional muzzle loading.
But, I still think he should be treated as he is, a total screw ball, and those guys will always have a following.
I do wonder if he has any effect other than just being an irritant.
I have actually read some of this guys rambling attacks on traditional muzzle loading.
But, I still think he should be treated as he is, a total screw ball, and those guys will always have a following.
I do wonder if he has any effect other than just being an irritant.
walruskid1
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the danger is that somebody might buy his ramblings as gospel.
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