tomahawks vs hatchets?

[longshot47]

Not speaking to the question, but I'm for sure hung-up on Claude's example of a hawk.
A fine, fine piece. :thumbsup:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well supposedly the metal tomahawk was based on the head of a British naval boarding axe, and replaced the stone axe that was called a tomahawk by natives.

Another problem is our modern mind set..., we are much more specific in some areas than they were on wording. For instance, they often used the word "hatchet" for chopping tools used by specific trades..., cooper's hatchet, shingler's [roofer] hatchet, while the word "axe" tends to be more often applied to a tool that many folks use..., felling axe, hewing axe, splitting axe.

As for lightness, lighter bladed chopping weapons are easier to carry, quicker when fighting, and less expensive. It may be that one of the reasons what we call a tomahawk is smaller than some of the larger "hatchets" is that the maker had a limited supply of iron, and the more made = the more profit, so they were made smaller?? Although you decrease the impact when pounding a stake, we must remember that shelter requirements and fire fuel requirements "in the field" were much smaller than many of us use today when emulating the time period.

I have a "mouse" 'hawk with a 4" blade and a small poll, that works very well for fieldcraft. I have a slightly larger plain hawk that does equally well, whether breaking up firewood from branches, or cutting small poles for a shelter.

Granted the pattern with a spike opposite of the blade is for fighting, but otherwise, perhaps a light "hatchet" became a tomahawk simply because it was traded or when carried in the field. Perhaps it was more a function of the length of the handle, for I have seen "belt axes" with heads very close in weight and design to "tomahawks". The only real variation would be what handle was fasten on it in its day. You can make up for impact weight a bit by increasing the moment of the tool with a longer handle..., and you reach farther with your weapon but still retain some control. So perhaps if you took a belt axe, and swapped out the normal length handle for one half-again as long or twice as long people would call it a "tomahawk"? There is a trade off point as well, for if you add too much handle, or don't choke up a bit, you end up with a weapon that is quite unwieldy, especially if you miss during your swing.

LD

 

[necchi]

So it's thought that the two terms do indeed refer to the same item, just different uses?

I'd have to dig but, I studied at one time the value of "trade" items at posts here in the Great Northwest.
Listed was;
Axe = 8 beaver
Half Axe = 5 beaver

So the chopping head carried for sale/trade by the companies where neither Tomahawk or Hatchet,
but an Axe head large or small,,(?)

 

[fatboy]

Necchi I believe Tomahawk realy is a spike type hawk a trade ax and or hatchet are different the trade ax is what we call and use as a throwing hawk. Your felling ax is going to be bigger 3 to 6 lb going be some variation in design and size of all of these depending who made them and what part of the country/world they came from. A good book I think any how is Firearms Traps and Tools of The Mountain Men has some good drawings of museum and collector item's

 

[George]

So it's thought that the two terms do indeed refer to the same item, just different uses?

I've done a fair bit of searching through my 18th-century newspaper database about hatchets and tomahawks, and I find it not easy to get it straightened out. Some general results:

I find 550+ hits for hatchets, and most of them are used in the way we would, carpenter's hatchets, jointer's hatchets, etc. Most are offered for sale. The term is also used to describe a military weapon, as, for instance, a required weapon for militia units, and called hatchets, not tomahawks. Tales of battles on board ships frequently use the term, but don't make it clear whether this is a carpenter's hatchet someone picked up or if it's a naval battle axe by another name.

In describing events in which it is likely that a tomahawk was used, they frequently use the term 'Indian hatchet'. They also offer 'Indian hatchets' for sale, and they don't call them trade items.

The term tomahawk gives me 180 hits, I've looked at them all, and they are almost exclusively linked to items concerning Indians. Almost, but not completely. There are a few where runaways took with them a tomahawk, for instance, or as in one item, describing a fight between a man and some Indians, it is stated he fought with a "tomahawk he carried in his belt". Also, in listing the gear carried by "every French soldier who came against Fort William-Henry", a tomahawk is one item carried.

They don't usually describe either hatchet or tomahawk, but a few do mention pipe or spike tomahawks. The term "Pipe Hatchet" also showed up. And this..."round ey'd and square pole hatchets". Henry Knox describing Roger's Rangers..." armed with a firelock, tomahawk, or small hatchet, and a scalping knife". For sale... " extraordinary good oval ey'd indian hatchets". From the diary of Arthur Harris, describing equipment required of Mass. troops... "A Cuting Sword or Tomahawk or Hatchet". A description of the men of Michael Cresap, 1775... " painted like Indians, armed with Tomahawks and Rifles , dressed in hunting Shirts and Mockasons".

Here's a good example of the difference in our way of thinking and theirs... from The Conquest of the Old Southwest, by Archibald Henderson:

" ...tied round the middle with a broad belt, much decorated also, in which is fastened a tomahawk, an instrument that serves every purpose of defense and convenience; being a hammer at one side and a sharp hatchet at the other;"

It's pretty confusing. One thing is clear, though, the language used to describe these items in the 18th century was very different from that used today. I'm afraid it's another example of our modern thinking not matching up closely with the original situation.

Spence

 

[crockett]

I agree with Claude's two photos as far as the differences between the two styles. In the various writings, it seems to me that the terms are often indiscriminantly used such that the reader is confused about what is being written about. I think among those of European descent the hatchet was far more common however it is my understanding tomahawks were issued to Revolutionary riflemen because they could not normally affix a bayonet to a rifle (although a few contract rifles were modified for bayonet use). I think the Valley Forge NP museum has one such hawk on display and it doesn't have a spike but has a round head- the type normally thrown at modern rondezvous events. I read years ago in a period bayonet manual about being careful of confronting a man with a tomahawk as the man could dodge the bayonet thrust and use the hawk to hook the musket and control it- in any event hawks must have been somewhat common to have been mentioned.

 

[Jim Blair]

Several times I have run across the phrases "taken up the hatchet" or "lifted the hatchet" in 18th century writings when talking of Indians going on the prod against settlers.As was mentioned,the terminology used then and now appears to be quite different.

 

[fatboy]

I'ts to bad they didnt have cameras back then. We present day have some diff opinions on what is what! I did read where the British issued a military tomahawk from 1760"s on up through the Revolutionary War but they were of the flat poll hatchet or belt ax. There is mention of French Grenadiers being issued what was called a small ax as "hatchet" w/hammerhead 1702 Saint Remy published a drawing depicting this. Lewis and Clark were trying to get corn from the Mandans but whats been written they were shown a ax the Indians wanted and they had the blacksmith make several of them they also noted that these were a clumsy thing his drawings were reproduced and were refered to as war hatchet and basically the design of the trade ax but a bit larger if drawing an scale are right they look like 9-10"lenght.

 

[dyemaker]

Looking at boarding axes, I see alot of similarity to the "spike hawks". This one is more like a hatchet again. I think it's from the Civil war era U.S. Navy...

Link

The flintlock/ boarding ax hybrids in image search are interesting also.

 

[Jim Blair]

Here's one with more than passing similiarity to Claude's spike tomahawk-
http://www.thepirateslair.com/9-boarding-ax-british-mid-1700s-marked-lewis-a-2.html

The big difference was most boarding axes had langets extending down the handles for reinforcements.Many boarding axes especially the 16th and 17th century ones look as if they were the pattern for many tomahawks although much heavier built and longer hafted with reinforced handles.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I don't remember which Museum I was in that had a selection of varied edged weapons. From Medieval Halberds and battle axes, to really bizarre looking double spiked heads on 4 ft handles to wee little belt axes and hatchets. Even one that had a edge parallel to the handle on one side and an edge perpendicular on the other.

I got the sense that the weapons makers made anything from tiny to monstrous in dozens of size gradations and variations were as wide as the imagination.

When something goes from one classification to another is probably a bit blurred.

 

[Coot]

Looking at boarding axes, I see alot of similarity to the "spike hawks". This one is more like a hatchet again. I think it's from the Civil war era U.S. Navy...

Link

The flintlock/ boarding ax hybrids in image search are interesting also.

The hatchet shown in the link is considered by most authorities to be of American Civil War origins and pretty much a tool rather than weapon. For that matter, boarding axes in general are more tool than weapon. Used for cutting away fallen rope rigging, hooking & pulling out debris including burning/smoldering wood, mostly a fire fighting deck clearing tool that could also be pressed into service as a weapon but described by Lt Skyner, RN in 1802 "but is inferior when opposed to thrusting weapons such as the musket and bayonet, pike or cutlass". Naval references include the use of many terms - " battle axe, pole axe, axes, boarding hatchets" or sometimes just "hatchet" (in a contex that is clearly not refering to a carpenter's tool), and "tomahawk or ship's tomahawk" in a variety of spellings. The length seems to run from 38" to 24" with 28-29" being the most common.

 

[Stony]

Humm :hmm: six to one, half dozen to another. I think a hatchet can be a tomahawk but not the other way around. Having said that I have often used a tomahawk for camp chores and throwing. Never had a need to chop down a tree nor fight off anyone so.....

 

[Jim Blair]

LOL If you're using it to chop wood for the campfire it's a "hatchet".If you're sticking it in somebodies head it's a "tomahawk".Love muti-use tools don't you too.

 

[Stony]

That's why I'm falling in love with my Sitting Fox .62/20 gauge smoothbore Virginia "fowler". Shoots a .600 PRB very well at 25 yards. Haven't tried it at any other range yet and I'm looking at making some "ticking" cloth shot cups for it. But getting back to the tomahawk - hatchets topic. I agree that a person would use whatever was handy. A white man, planning on a hunt would probably grab a hatchet but if he was going out with fighting in mind or a real possibility, he probably would carry a tomahawk. Just think if Jim Bowie carried a tomahawk to that sandbar fight :hmm:

 

[fatboy]

Im sure Jim would have put it to good use LOL

 

[necchi]

An interesting tidbit of defenition;

Etymology: Middle English hachet "small ax, hatchet," from early French hachette, literally, "small battle-ax,"
from hache "battle-ax"; of Germanic origin.
: a small ax with a short handle

Another was, Hatchet;
A small Ax designed to be used with one hand.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

From the Maryland Archives Online:

For Tomahawks:

I was at that time at Work in a Log-house near
the Fort and upon receiving such Orders I took my Blanket and a Tomahawk and went towards the place where the two Labourers were at Work
Account of an escape from the French
Proceedings of the Council of Maryland 1753-1761

to the irreparable Loss of many poor Families among them whose Fathers, Brothers, Wives, and Children fell under the Gun or the Tomahawk, and by receiving the Bloody Stroke themselves averted it from those who shook at a Distance and were ready to fly
Proceedings of the Council of Maryland 1761-1769

Bayonet Belt, to go over the shoulder with a double frog to carry a Bayonett & Tomahawk @ 4/6.
Committee of Safety 1775-1776

For Hatchets:

Likewise I have sent you these black Beads to convince you, that I have taken up the Hatchet against all the English Enemies.
Waliachy 1757-1785

you have taken up the Hatchet against our Enemies, and that you will hold it fast 'till you have used it against the French and the Indians in their Alliance.
From Gov. Sharpe to the Indians 1753-1761

plus additional references, it seems that when Whites write to Indians official messages, or when Indian messages are translated when sent to whites..."hatchet" is used.

Sometimes the whites use the word "tomahawk" during the F&I period when a prisoner escaped carrying a bladed weapon gotten in captivity, sometimes describing Indian warfare, and later during the AWI an offer is made to make frogs to carry both bayonet and tomahawk.

LD

 

[dyemaker]

Much older horseman's axes are similar to boarding axes in a way; with the spikes serving to pierce armor instead. Such a weapon could be called a breeching axe also, useful in close quarters. The wide flat "sharkstooth" spikes interest me.
http://www.halfblogre.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/wheellock_axes.jpg

 

[fatboy]

So do you guys agree its difficult to determine what was or wasnt used ?