Touch-hole position

[muzlodr]

Just wonderin'. Been shooting BP since '64 - flint since '80. All flint experience has been with a T/C .45 Hawken. Almost instantaneous ignition w/50-90 grs of 3F and lite prime of 4F. It just goes WHAMBANG! I usually hear the BANG before the WHAM is complete. I thought that was the way all flints worked. Boy, was I wrong. Now to my problem. A couple of yrs ago I bought a Cabela's (Investarms) .54 Hawken. Ignition is slow and inconsistant. Really been buggin' me lately. I've adjusted the screws...smoothed all contact surfaces...re-hardened the frizzen the way I always have, by using Dixie's old recommendation of wrapping the frizzen in a piece of leather and putting that inside a tin can then throwing it in a wood fire for about 1/2 hour. It's always worked in the past, but not with this gun. I'd about given up until I started reading a lot about touch-hole location. Think I've found my problem. The center of my touch-hole liner is just a tad above the bottem of my pan. There is a lot of metal in the pan below the prime cavity. QUESTION is how much metal can I safely remove from the bottom of the pan to lower the powder level in relation to the touch-hole? I guess the real question is how much metal needs to remain to allow a good safety factor? Any suggestions will be appreciated.
Muzlodr

 

[Rat]

Ok yeah, if your touch-hole is sitting in the bottom of the pan, you got a heap of trouble boy. Your prime is covering it up, so it has to burn down to the main charge like a fuse.

How much you can deepen the pan depends on how much barrel flat is below the pan, and how much meat is in the pan, and you mention that the pan has a lot of metal.

With an octagon barrel rifle, you should have quite a bit of room to deepen the pan. If the touch hole liner sits in the middle of the flat, you definately have a lot of room. But you'll have to look at it, do some measureing and make a good guestimate.

Cutting the pan deeper is the easy part, as you can see how much meat you have left. What you have to figure out is, if you cut the pan too deep, will you then run out of barrel flat, when the pan goes back up against the barrel.

The pan is under no stress as far as I know, so I don't think you have to worry about making it too thin, within reason.

I don't think you'll have a problem getting the pan deeper. You'll probably still have to use less of a prime than you do in your .45. Also, is the touch hole smaller than the one in the .45?

Just out of curiosity...does the .54 have the "patent breech"??

Somebody should make a touch-hole liner with an offset hole, just for guns with low-holes.

Rat

 

[Rebel]

Somebody should make a touch-hole liner with an offset hole, just for guns with low-holes.

Rat

Only problem would be knowing where the hole was going to be when screwed in. You could have someone make you a liner with no hole, and then drill it where you need it.

 

[Rat]

Bingo!

Reb is pretty smart for someone that cleans his firearms with soap and water.

:master:

Rat

 

[rifleshooter2]

Thats a good idea about the off center liner all you have to do is have a solid plug turned and threaded to match the old liner. screw it in nice and tight then redrill the hole in the proper place. Piece of cake.
Andy

 

[muzlodr]

Rat.
Thanx. I'm not sure what a patent breech is. It has a hooked breech, 1" octagon barrel and the touch-hole liner is centered in the flat so I can remove a lot of pan before getting below the flat, but I'll keep that in mind as I'm grinding. I wish I had my T/C in front of me for comparison, but, alas, it now resides with one of my son's on the Oregon coast. (Never sell a gun - give it or trade for another gun to one of your kids before you croak so you can watch them enjoy them).
Muzlodr

 

[Rebel]

Bingo!

Reb is pretty smart for someone that cleans his firearms with soap and water.

:master:

Rat

Rat, that's cuz my brain cells ain't all fried from sniffing all them solvent fumes. :crackup:

 

[silverfox]

Stop me if I'm totally wrong. What does the barrel flat have to do with deeping the pan? The problem is to deepen the pan not open the dam so to speak. You don't have to grind the part of the pan off that touches the barrel flat unless it covers the flash hole. Just deepen the pan to hold the prime below the flash hole.
I like the idea of a new liner with offset hole and have seen a couple rifles with them that are fast on the ignition.
Good luck with which ever way you go.
Fox :imo:

 

You have me think'n "what" I might do if I had yore problem (uh-oh).

I might think 'bout leave'n the bottom of the pan alone (wher it meets the barrel flat), but taper the bottom of the pan deeper towards the far side.

This "might" provide a "ramp" of sorts for the flash to the touch-hole,.... and may also aid in keep'n the prime'n towards the out'er edge of the pan.

Like I first mentioned,.... I've never had the situation you have, and I've never tried what I mentioned,.... but,.... if it doesn't work, you can always remove more of the pan-bottom close to the barrel-flat.

If you do try this, and it drasticaly improves the "ignition-time",.... I'm sure many here would like to hear 'bout the results!!

GOOD LUCK!!

YMHS
rollingb

 

[Rat]

Silver Fox, if there's not enough barrel flat, you could take the pan down to where the next flat starts...which would leave an open gap between barrel and pan. Not likely, but could happen, especially if the touchhole liner, or touch hole is sitting low on the flat.

With a round barrel you have very little lee-way there, and can eaisly "run out of barrel" and find yourself with a gap between the pan and barrel.

:cry:

Obviously, your prime would leak down into the lock mortise, and probably even ignite down there when you fired the gun!!! Yow! Sure would be funny to see your lock go blowing off sideways!!!

:haha:

RollingB your idea makes sense, but I believe the prime tends to flash up first, which is why the high touch hole works so[url] well...in[/url] your example it might take it a while to flash sideways into the hole. In fact the "ramp" might even direct the flash AWAY from the touch hole...?? Just brain storming here. I don't know either.

Ahhh...what did you say Reb...er, what day is it? Where am I? Pass the rag and the bottle please....

:snore:

Rat

 

[roundball]

Just wonderin'. Been shooting BP since '64 - flint since '80. All flint experience has been with a T/C .45 Hawken. Almost instantaneous ignition w/50-90 grs of 3F and lite prime of 4F. It just goes WHAMBANG! I usually hear the BANG before the WHAM is complete. I thought that was the way all flints worked. Boy, was I wrong. Now to my problem. A couple of yrs ago I bought a Cabela's (Investarms) .54 Hawken. Ignition is slow and inconsistant. Really been buggin' me lately. I've adjusted the screws...smoothed all contact surfaces...re-hardened the frizzen the way I always have, by using Dixie's old recommendation of wrapping the frizzen in a piece of leather and putting that inside a tin can then throwing it in a wood fire for about 1/2 hour. It's always worked in the past, but not with this gun. I'd about given up until I started reading a lot about touch-hole location. Think I've found my problem. The center of my touch-hole liner is just a tad above the bottem of my pan. There is a lot of metal in the pan below the prime cavity. QUESTION is how much metal can I safely remove from the bottom of the pan to lower the powder level in relation to the touch-hole? I guess the real question is how much metal needs to remain to allow a good safety factor? Any suggestions will be appreciated.
Muzlodr

Before modyifying the pan, you could try shimming the tang and breech end up 1/8" and see if that makes a difference.

 

[flaming canvas]

How much you can deepen the pan depends on how much barrel flat is below the pan, and how much meat is in the pan, and you mention that the pan has a lot of metal.

Be careful about that lot of metal. Look out for a slot that fits the end of the mainspring. You don't want to get down into that or you will be getting fire down into the lock mortise. :curse: :curse: :curse:

 

How much you can deepen the pan depends on how much barrel flat is below the pan, and how much meat is in the pan, and you mention that the pan has a lot of metal.

Be careful about that lot of metal. Look out for a slot that fits the end of the mainspring. You don't want to get down into that or you will be getting fire down into the lock mortise. :curse: :curse: :curse:

In most cases thet would definitly be a concern, but I think the Investarms lock uses a "coil-mainspring" and shouldn't present a problem in regards to the depth of the pan!!

YMHS
rollingb

 

[TANSTAAFL]

"...and may also aid in keep'n the prime'n towards the out'er edge of the pan"

:redthumb: Bingo, we have a winner. Just give the piece a slap to seat the powder over to the outside of the pan and give it a go. And don't use too much powder.

:m2c:Also if you go to grinding on the pan to deepen. Watch out you don't grind in such a manner so as to deflect the priming flash away from the touchhole.

 

[Darkhorse]

Before I did anything to the pan I would check the touchhole liner itself.
Is the hole too small to get a good spark through?
Is the hole partially blocked by a screw slot?
Is the channel too long between the outside and the inside cone?
Is the inside cone sufficient?
Answer these questions now with less powder in the pan or you WILL end up aswering them later.

 

[Bushwhacker]

Maybe I can help... You might be able to drill and tap the touch hole to 5/16 X 24 thread and install a liner in it and then drill the hole in proper position. I had to do this the other day on a similar gun. If you're interested I can make you a stainless steel liner coned on the inside and mail it to you.. No charge..email me and we'll cuss and discuss if you're interested.

 

[Rat]

WOW! The BushWhacker RULES!!

:master:

Rat

 

RB mentioned raiseing the breech and tang..If doing this you will be also raise the barrel and you sights will be off along with the tang not mounted flush with the stock.

Now to the design of a flash hole liner:
A flash hole liner is designed in a shape that it looks like two cones faceing each other.
When looked at from the cross section it makes an "X" pattern. This is to increase velosity and decrease in preasure and then when it reaches the middle the velosity is decreased and the pressure is increased. This is why a lightening type touch hole works so well.
Now for a little experiment:
Take some powder. Make a line up an incline and then light it from the top of the incline. and see how long it burns.
(Becarefull not to get burnt).
Now make another line of powder on the same incline and repeat this process only lighting it from the bottom.
(Again be carefull to not get burnt)
Powder as any other fuel source burns faster and better up instead of down.
If you grind the pan as rollingball said leaveing the edge on the inside untouched so you are not below the barrel flat and makeing it at an angle slightly down and to the outside, in theory, should make the prime ignite the charge faster. and will probably cure your problem.
The flash hole has to be above the prime.

:imo: :results:

Woody

 

[brushbuster]

Bingo!

Reb is pretty smart for someone that cleans his firearms with soap and water.

:master:

Rat

Rat, that's cuz my brain cells ain't all fried from sniffing all them solvent fumes. :crackup:

LMAO :crackup: :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:good one reb :crackup: :crackup:
anyway, i agree with woodhicks theory,slopeing the pan away from the touch hole may be your answer, just enough to keep the powder from covering the touch hole :m2c:

 

[roundball]

RB mentioned raiseing the breech and tang..If doing this you will be also raise the barrel and you sights will be off along with the tang not mounted flush with the stock.

Now to the design of a flash hole liner:
A flash hole liner is designed in a shape that it looks like two cones faceing each other.
When looked at from the cross section it makes an "X" pattern. This is to increase velosity and decrease in preasure and then when it reaches the middle the velosity is decreased and the pressure is increased. This is why a lightening type touch hole works so well.
Now for a little experiment:
Take some powder. Make a line up an incline and then light it from the top of the incline. and see how long it burns.
(Becarefull not to get burnt).
Now make another line of powder on the same incline and repeat this process only lighting it from the bottom.
(Again be carefull to not get burnt)
Powder as any other fuel source burns faster and better up instead of down.
If you grind the pan as rollingball said leaveing the edge on the inside untouched so you are not below the barrel flat and makeing it at an angle slightly down and to the outside, in theory, should make the prime ignite the charge faster. and will probably cure your problem.
The flash hole has to be above the prime.

:imo: :results:

Woody

As I said, my suggestion was a temporary test to see if raising the touchhole improved things before making any permanent changes to the pan like grinding on it,[url] etc...in[/url] case the problem might actually be something else like needing a larger touch hole, etc;

And FYI...running the temporary test I suggested has no effect on sights at all..the sights are still right on the barrel where they always were and you'll still line them up on the target like you always do, and the POI will still be the same place like it always was, etc...you might simply have the rifle/head alignment in a barely inperceptibly different position but when the sights are aligned as normal, POI is still the same.

(Same principle behind the success of the Remington 1187 cantilever scoped deer barrels...the barrel/ scope assembly is a single unit, removed / reinstalled as a single unit, and their relationship to each other never changes)