Touch-hole position

One other consideration with regards to shimming up the barrel. The original poster is trying to solve a problem concerning reliabilty of ignition. Once you come up with a workable solution to that then you could realign the sights if it is required. There's no point having a tack driving rifle that only goes off half the time. :m2c:

I don't think ther'll be any problem in regards to the sights,.... but,.... the "wedge key" might be'a different story!!

YMHS
rollingb

 

[roundball]

One other consideration with regards to shimming up the barrel. The original poster is trying to solve a problem concerning reliabilty of ignition. Once you come up with a workable solution to that then you could realign the sights if it is required. There's no point having a tack driving rifle that only goes off half the time. :m2c:

I don't think ther'll be any problem in regards to the sights,.... but,.... the "wedge key" might be'a different story!!
YMHS
rollingb

I did all this last year on a .58cal GM drop in Hawken barrel...no problems at all....lifting the tang & breech end 1/8" made no movement/change of the wedge tenon & pin relationship that I could tell at all...1/8" fall over that distance runs out to an eyelash that far away.

 

I did all this last year on a .58cal GM drop in Hawken barrel...no problems at all....lifting the tang & breech end 1/8" made no movement/change of the wedge tenon & pin relationship that I could tell at all...1/8" fall over that distance runs out to an eyelash that far away.

What did you do after thet??.... surely you didn't leave the tang stick'n up 3/16" above the wood.

(I ain't try'n to argue, jest ask'n questions)

YMHS
rollingb

 

[roundball]

I did all this last year on a .58cal GM drop in Hawken barrel...no problems at all....lifting the tang & breech end 1/8" made no movement/change of the wedge tenon & pin relationship that I could tell at all...1/8" fall over that distance runs out to an eyelash that far away.

What did you do after thet??.... surely you didn't leave the tang stick'n up 3/16" above the wood.

(I ain't try'n to argue, jest ask'n questions)

YMHS
rollingb

Actually it was only just barely above the mortise (1/16") and I didn't have time to send it back to them before deer season...I shot a couple bucks with it in November then saw their barrel recall announcement, so I stopped using it...lucky me, because that barrel recall resulted in them having to replace the breechplug and reblue the barrel, so I got them to agree to drill the vent hole 1/8" higher up on the flat as part of that process...GM has the barrel right now doing all that

 

Actually it was only just barely above the mortise (1/16") and I didn't have time to send it back to them before deer season...I shot a couple bucks with it in November then saw their barrel recall announcement, so I stopped using it...lucky me, because that barrel recall resulted in them having to replace the breechplug and reblue the barrel, so I got them to agree to drill the vent hole 1/8" higher up on the flat as part of that process...GM has the barrel right now doing all that

So, the tang sat somewhat "below" the wood surface to start with??

YMHS
rollingb

 

[roundball]

Actually it was only just barely above the mortise (1/16") and I didn't have time to send it back to them before deer season...I shot a couple bucks with it in November then saw their barrel recall announcement, so I stopped using it...lucky me, because that barrel recall resulted in them having to replace the breechplug and reblue the barrel, so I got them to agree to drill the vent hole 1/8" higher up on the flat as part of that process...GM has the barrel right now doing all that

So, the tang sat somewhat "below" the wood surface to start with??

YMHS
rollingb

RB, if we need to get this specific, let me reiterate that I said I shimmed things up 1/8"...that's only 2/16"...not 3/16" as you responded earlier, so that should bring things back into a little better perspective right there.

And when I shimmed the tang I only shimmed the front of it in case the raised hooked breech plug needed some extra allowance...loosened the screws, slipped a shim under the front 1/3, tightened the screws back down.

I left the rear 2/3 of the tang alone and over the length of the tang, only the front part of it gradually rose above the mortise a little but was not significant, and not anything I planned to leave that way...only wanted to get through hunting season.

Remember, this wasn't some $3000 custom rifle stock with mortises fitted out using a micrometer that I was dealing with...just a $150 mass produced TC Hawken stock, and I wanted to be ready to shoot some deer with the new .58cal drop-in Flintlock barrel I'd bought for it...did what I needed to do...worked perfectly

 

Another thought would be to give T/C a call. They might want to try and fix it for you. Some of the other Post have mentioned their quality of service on their flintlocks. Just a thought, Don't cost to ask, and even a small service charge might be worth it, especially if it's one of the older locks that need fixin Bill :hmm:

 

RB, if we need to get this specific, let me reiterate that I said I shimmed things up 1/8"...that's only 2/16"...not 3/16" as you responded earlier, so that should bring things back into a little better perspective right there.

My appolgies, I thot you shimmed the tang and rear of the barrel enuff to place the touch-hole 1/8" higher, which (in my mind) would have raised the tang even higher yet,... (I simply guessed this would result in the tang be'n 3/16" higher then it's original position).

It's been many years since I last handled mass produced muzzleloaders

YMHS
rollingb

 

[Terry Zboril]

Bill,
I thought that Daryl's touch hole problem was with a Cabelas/Investment gun, not TC.

Regardless, the touch hole needs to sit at the top level of the pan,(by any method) or at least where priming powder won't cover it, regardless if it is a $5000 custom or a $150 shelf gun.

The "hole at the bottom pan" (fuse effect), and/or overfilling the pan has unnecessarily turned many beginning flint shooters to the cap guns.

Regards,
Terry

 

[muzlodr]

Thanx for all the response. The first thing I tried was to enlarge the touch-hole -- #2 drill as recommended in several on-line articles. That didn't help. Next, I ground away some of the pan to lower the powder level. This helped some, but ignition is still slow. I hear a snap pfft bang instead of the snap bang (I don't know how else to describe the ignition) that I got with my T/C. I think what I have is a multiplicity of minor problems. The frizzen doesn't snap all the way open; no matter how many times I've re-hardened it I get a minimun of sparks; I'm not real good at knapping (nappin' is no problem). I'll keep working on this lock (yes, Investarms locks do use a coil mainspring, just like T/C) and eventually get it right. In the meantime, to relieve the stress, I'll just shoot my percussion pieces.
Muzlodr

 

[muzlodr]

Woodhick
I tried that experiment one 4th of July in the late '60's. Ended up wearing a white glove and a lot of salve on my right hand for almost a month. That was when I developed my enduring respect for blackpowder. Ouch!
My touch-hole liner is recessed, although really cone shaped on the inside, but is flat with a slot for the driver on the pan side. The flinter I keep comparing it with is my old T/C that I gave to my son. It was fitted (I know this to be correct, because I found one of my factory replacements this weekend and took a long, hard look) with a liner that was deeply coned on the inside and had a large recess on the pan side for the allen wrence to fit in. The amount of metal in the center is not very thick at all. Maybe counter-boring the outside will help. Maybe I just need to do some shopping for some replacement liners for Italian threads.
muzlodr

 

My touch-hole liner is recessed, although really cone shaped on the inside, but is flat with a slot for the driver on the pan side. The flinter I keep comparing it with is my old T/C that I gave to my son. It was fitted (I know this to be correct, because I found one of my factory replacements this weekend and took a long, hard look) with a liner that was deeply coned on the inside and had a large recess on the pan side for the allen wrence to fit in. The amount of metal in the center is not very thick at all. Maybe counter-boring the outside will help. Maybe I just need to do some shopping for some replacement liners for Italian threads.

Adding a slight cone to the outside will definitely help. Some have suggested also only coning the underside of the hole, leaving sort of a "roof" to help direct fire into the hole, though I have never tried this, it seems that it would work as well.

You can order replacement liners for italian threads (Lyman/Investarm) from Track of the Wolf. They have them in both Ampco bronze and stainless steel.

 

[Packdog]

Darel,
I have shot a Cabela's Hawken for a couple of years. Getting the thing to go off when it was new was like a roll of the dice each time.
My vent is very low in the pan just like yours. (1/2 pan of primer is all it needs. Anymore and it is slow) As suggested, get your self a replacement liner or two from TOTW or Log Cabin shop. My current liner was coned on the inside and and a little on the outside by a very helpful member of this board. Looks a lot like the new TC liner only it has a screwdriver slot. He used a #2 center drill I believe. Also increased the size of the hole to 5/64. With a hole that big it can self prime with 3F but she goes off like a champ eveytime I get a spark. The only miss-fires in the last couple of hundred rounds have been due to me being lazy about changing the flint. Hope that helps.

 

[RussB]

My touch-hole liner is recessed, although really cone shaped on the inside, but is flat with a slot for the driver on the pan side. The flinter I keep comparing it with is my old T/C that I gave to my son. It was fitted (I know this to be correct, because I found one of my factory replacements this weekend and took a long, hard look) with a liner that was deeply coned on the inside and had a large recess on the pan side for the allen wrence to fit in. The amount of metal in the center is not very thick at all. Maybe counter-boring the outside will help. Maybe I just need to do some shopping for some replacement liners for Italian threads.

Adding a slight cone to the outside will definitely help. Some have suggested also only coning the underside of the hole, leaving sort of a "roof" to help direct fire into the hole, though I have never tried this, it seems that it would work as well.

You can order replacement liners for italian threads (Lyman/Investarm) from Track of the Wolf. They have them in both Ampco bronze and stainless steel.

I think that is the first time I've ever heard of coning the underside of the flash hole...It seems to have merit, at least in my own feeble thoughts. :hmm:

Anyone with any real experience in doing this? :master:

Russ

 

I know I didn't dream it up all on my own... seems like I remember a post by Terry Zboril mentioning it perhaps?

 

Yep, here's the thread: Clicky-Poo

 

[muzlodr]

THANX!!!
Just want to say thanx and give an update on what I tried and the results.
1. I reshaped the pan. Not only was the touch-hole too low, but it was drilled way too far back. It is now centered fore/aft.
2. Was unable to accept the generous offer of one of you to make me some custom 5/16 liners. Not only was the hole drilled too low, but it was already nearly touching the lower edge of the flat.
3. Swapped my Investarms frizzen for a spare T/C - perfect fit and one of a known quality of sparks.
4. Really messed up my 6 X .75 liner so re-threaded the hole to 1/4 X 28 and used a spare T/C Allen recessed liner. Now, before I get scolded for that thread size maybe not being safe, I did this only for a test. At most I'll be out the cost of a new breech plug.
5. Mixed up a batch of "Moose Milk" - would have made some "Moose Snot" also, but couldn't locate beeswax this weekend.
Now for the results - 20 degrees with light snow. 80 grs fffg with ffffg prime. GUN WORKS GREAT!!! Very fast ignition. The only flash in the pan was after 8 shots without running a pick through the hole - it was really clogged. Not only has my enjoyment of flint been restored, but I was really impressed with the "Moose Milk". I went 20 shots without swabbing the bore. Would have fired more, but I only pre-soaded 20 patches the nite before. Great stuff!

So what did I learn (I'm a teacher, remember - we need to review)
1. There are a lot of great strangers out there ready and willing to offer advice/solutions/suggestions.
2. A few minor problems can combine to reek havoc with performance and enjoyment.
3. "Thwakbang" really is music to a flinters ear!