Trade gun trigonometry

[Dusty_Traveler]

I've been piddling with a left hand 12 bore trade gun I recently got from a fellow forum member. I've been doing some fitting, tuning and small customizing. I've had a couple of trade guns. I really like their simplicity, ruggedness, and versatility.

Although authentic, I am not a real big fan of the repurposed basket ball hoop trigger guards. I'd love to see your pictures. I think an iron trigger/guard for a fusil de chasse would look very good. Has anyone built a trade gun with a less prominent trigger/guard?

Also, this gun does not have any type of sight. I will be shooting just as many round ball as I will be shot, so I'll be soldering on a front sight and I'm highly considering cutting a dovetail for a rear sight. Has anyone a rear sight on their trade gun? Do you like it? Is it in the way for wing shots?

 

[user 34486]

While this has nothing to do with rifles, but yes there are more cast fowler type trigger guards in archives containing mid 18th c trade gun parts than sheet. These could indicate a higher presence of 16-20 shilling guns than the cheaper Carolina/ type G, or they could have come from something more like the type D. Personally I think there was more variance and a pseudo hybridization of typology that could be based on part availability to guys like Wilson that varied with demand. So basically I'm led to believe from my observations that the spectrum of what these things looked like was a little less strict than we currently assume. Of the sheet brass types I've seen, virtually all of them look like the thing has been smashed in to be more flat towards the stock/ trigger. Whether that happens at some point in situ after the thing's been trashed, I'm sure I can't say, but to see it so consistently leads me to believe that it was customary.

Yes rear sights were on certain trade guns like the English Carolina gun, but archeological evidence suggests that they were removed as many sights are found as surface finds, and almost all Carolina guns found don't have one on. Could they have been consistently falling out of the dovetails during the period? It's possible, but again there's a lot of consistency among the scant extant data. Front sights that are dovetailed in aren't falling out any more than rear lugs, so take that for what it's worth.

No these sights don't get in the way, but I'd rather have a barrel featuring the empty dovetail than simply to omit the rear sight altogether.

 

[waksupi]

Depending on your age you may find a rear sight is too close to the eye to be of use.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

You'll want to look into Carolina guns, also known as a type "G". They usually had barrels around 48" long 20 bore. All the mounts can be made out of sheet brass. I made 3 dozen of these over the years. They weigh about 6lbs or a little less.

 

[Dusty_Traveler]

Thanks for the info gentlemen. I searched those models and the type D is the look I am going for.

That sure is a fine piece of a trade rifle, Mr. Floyd.

Sorry for posting in the wrong forum, noted, thanks mods!

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Type D is French. Type G is english. Trade guns, not rifles. The last link below is a Davis French fusil de trait kit. The top two are home made.

Type C-D French fusil de trait 1735-55

ANother early D 1735-55

Late D circa 1750-60

 

[Rob M.]

I've been piddling with a left hand 12 bore trade gun I recently got from a fellow forum member. I've been doing some fitting, tuning and small customizing. I've had a couple of trade guns. I really like their simplicity, ruggedness, and versatility.

Although authentic, I am not a real big fan of the repurposed basket ball hoop trigger guards. I'd love to see your pictures. I think an iron trigger/guard for a fusil de chasse would look very good. Has anyone built a trade gun with a less prominent trigger/guard?

Also, this gun does not have any type of sight. I will be shooting just as many round ball as I will be shot, so I'll be soldering on a front sight and I'm highly considering cutting a dovetail for a rear sight. Has anyone a rear sight on their trade gun? Do you like it? Is it in the way for wing shots?

Early NW guns , pre 1780 , had smaller triggerguard loops .... Walnut stocked NW gun is an early style , cherry stocked is a late , post 1780 , style NW gun ....

 

[oldwood]

Can't remember where I read this , somewhere there was a sentence or so , about those tall bow trigger guards. It stated , Indians liked to use two fingers to pull the trigger . I say why? My guess was , that some of the trade musket locks , had very deep sear notches making the trigger pull weight heavy , so there was a true need , to use two fingers to fire the gun. I had a 1970 era repro Brown Bess musket , that needed the trigger pull lightened , which I did. .....oldwood

 

[Rob M.]

I dont know for sure but there is indeed a mention in Hudsons Bay Company records . It states that trigger guards should be made larger because two fingers were needed to pull the trigger , because of heavy trigger pull . But ....this was stated in 1740 and guards weren't made into the large bow we know today until after 1780 so ....who knows ! I think it is the mitton theory , its a northern gun , but ....no one knows for sure and likely never will .

 

[smoothshooter]

While this has nothing to do with rifles, but yes there are more cast fowler type trigger guards in archives containing mid 18th c trade gun parts than sheet. These could indicate a higher presence of 16-20 shilling guns than the cheaper Carolina/ type G, or they could have come from something more like the type D. Personally I think there was more variance and a pseudo hybridization of typology that could be based on part availability to guys like Wilson that varied with demand. So basically I'm led to believe from my observations that the spectrum of what these things looked like was a little less strict than we currently assume. Of the sheet brass types I've seen, virtually all of them look like the thing has been smashed in to be more flat towards the stock/ trigger. Whether that happens at some point in situ after the thing's been trashed, I'm sure I can't say, but to see it so consistently leads me to believe that it was customary.

Yes rear sights were on certain trade guns like the English Carolina gun, but archeological evidence suggests that they were removed as many sights are found as surface finds, and almost all Carolina guns found don't have one on. Could they have been consistently falling out of the dovetails during the period? It's possible, but again there's a lot of consistency among the scant extant data. Front sights that are dovetailed in aren't falling out any more than rear lugs, so take that for what it's worth.

No these sights don't get in the way, but I'd rather have a barrel featuring the empty dovetail than simply to omit the rear sight altogether.

If I recall correctly, several of the original NW guns in the extensive collection that the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron NE has are equipped with rear sights.

 

[LongWalker]

As best I recall, the last time I went through the MFT collection, around 30+% of the NWG had added rear sights, most common was a chip turned up with a cold chisel.

 

[planefixer da50]

they used two fingers to pull bow string n just natural for a trigger

 

[Rob M.]

I've been piddling with a left hand 12 bore trade gun I recently got from a fellow forum member. I've been doing some fitting, tuning and small customizing. I've had a couple of trade guns. I really like their simplicity, ruggedness, and versatility.

Although authentic, I am not a real big fan of the repurposed basket ball hoop trigger guards. I'd love to see your pictures. I think an iron trigger/guard for a fusil de chasse would look very good. Has anyone built a trade gun with a less prominent trigger/guard?

Also, this gun does not have any type of sight. I will be shooting just as many round ball as I will be shot, so I'll be soldering on a front sight and I'm highly considering cutting a dovetail for a rear sight. Has anyone a rear sight on their trade gun

 

[user 34486]

North West guns and the Carolina guns are different patterns from different contacts/ vendors, for different customers, and decades apart but they too had sights.

 

[Bnewberry]

they used two fingers to pull bow string n just natural for a trigger

I am not an expert, but have studied archery a bit. From this I believe a lot of native archery used a pinch grip. Pinching the arrow between thumb and index finger. This helps keep the arrow on the string. Arrows of the time had a self nock that didn’t snap onto the string to stay in place.

 

[Rob M.]

I've been piddling with a left hand 12 bore trade gun I recently got from a fellow forum member. I've been doing some fitting, tuning and small customizing. I've had a couple of trade guns. I really like their simplicity, ruggedness, and versatility.

Although authentic, I am not a real big fan of the repurposed basket ball hoop trigger guards. I'd love to see your pictures. I think an iron trigger/guard for a fusil de chasse would look very good. Has anyone built a trade gun with a less prominent trigger/guard?

Also, this gun does not have any type of sight. I will be shooting just as many round ball as I will be shot, so I'll be soldering on a front sight and I'm highly considering cutting a dovetail for a rear sight. Has anyone a rear sight on their trade gun? Do you like it? Is it in the way for wing shots?

Lots of trigger guards out there to choose from if you want to replace your large bow trigger guard . I make a lot of N.W. trade guns . Some folks just dont like that big T.G. If it is surfaced mounted it won't be a big deal to replace said T.G. but if it is inlet you'll have to find or have some one forge or cast you something with slightly larger dimensions so it can cover the old outline once inlet on top . Neither way is terrible difficult . On my personal trade guns I always have a rear sight . It certainly helps making shots more accurate past 30 yards for me . Wing shooting you'd probably be better off with just the front but thats for each to decide . I'm no wing shooter ! ... Best of luck .

 

[Rob M.]

Some examples... Carolina Gun is brass trigger guard.... and picks of small bow guards and large bow guards I've made

 

[oldwood]

Greetings Rob..........I was a long time m/l gun builder , since 1970 , and always had a few Peda Vachet French issue Indian trade musket stocks around , but never took time to build one of them.. Well , last year during a bout with covid, while in the aftermath , waiting on my wife to get well , I put one of the French muskets together. My guidelines were iron hardware , smallest gauge in the group. That was a 16 Ga.. The American black walnut stock came from wood I collected back in the 1970's. ( Thus ,My Forum name.....oldwood) The guy that designed my stocks , was Kit Ravenshear....He took the design from an actual French trade musket in the legendary British Royal gun Museum , in London. Kit was Knighted Queen's Armorer to the Museum. So.....since the stock had such a heritage of accuracy, I sorted through my collection of French parts , and a 21st century Peda Vachet , (foot of the cow) 1750's , French Indian musket was hatched. Just holding this musket , engenders thoughts of the Indian wars in the Ohio River Valley , and beyond.
The musket you are creating , should reflect you. I'm sure it will be Historically correct enough to have been a battle field pick up by your historic persona..............I wish you well.........oldwood

 

[Rob M.]

Greetings Rob..........I was a long time m/l gun builder , since 1970 , and always had a few Peda Vachet French issue Indian trade musket stocks around , but never took time to build one of them.. Well , last year during a bout with covid, while in the aftermath , waiting on my wife to get well , I put one of the French muskets together. My guidelines were iron hardware , smallest gauge in the group. That was a 16 Ga.. The American black walnut stock came from wood I collected back in the 1970's. ( Thus ,My Forum name.....oldwood) The guy that designed my stocks , was Kit Ravenshear....He took the design from an actual French trade musket in the legendary British Royal gun Museum , in London. Kit was Knighted Queen's Armorer to the Museum. So.....since the stock had such a heritage of accuracy, I sorted through my collection of French parts , and a 21st century Peda Vachet , (foot of the cow) 1750's , French Indian musket was hatched. Just holding this musket , engenders thoughts of the Indian wars in the Ohio River Valley , and beyond.
The musket you are creating , should reflect you. I'm sure it will be Historically correct enough to have been a battle field pick up by your historic persona..............I wish you well.........oldwood

Very interesting ! Sounds like we have much in common . I love my trade guns , all I build , and visit all the historical spots I can here in Ohio. Take care.

 

[user 53846]

My 12 gauge Trade Gun trigger guard. Chief's Grade were a bit fancier.