Trade Rifle....kind of

[Davemuzz]

Ok, I'm going to (finally) take my barrel and surround it with stuff that I want to....because I like it. So...I'm fishing for some opinions here and this is what I was looking to do:

1- I have a very accurate GM octagon 50 cal, 33" long. This was a T\C "drop in" replacement barrel.

2- Heres the stuff I want to get (not a complete list, but just the major components. All will be blued, and I won't be using any brass.

a- Stock: Leman trade rifle built for barrels up 42". I'll cut it to fit mine.

b-Lock: late english flint re-enforced cock by L&R

c-Trigger: Hawken double set trigger with straight front trigger.

d-Trigger Guard: Early Hawken style, wax cast steel.

I'm not sure of a butt plate yet, however I don't think I want one with too big of a "sweep" too the back. Comfort is key and I'll have to look and think of what I want. I'm thinking of the Leman stock because it's available where I have at least a 90 day wait for any F\L hawken stock.

Thoughts?

Dave

 

[galamb]

Hey Dave,

(opinion here)

Leman full stocks were a fine looking rifle - but only if they didn't have that hideous "fake" tiger stripes painted on the stock.

Cutting it down to fit your barrel would not detract from the overall look in my opinion. I almost built one myself with a 32" barrel but opted for an Ohio pattern almost at the last minute (the full stock Leman is still on my "to do list")

Your lock selection is what is considered correct for many plains style full stocks and I wouldn't try to talk you out of it, it is a good lock.

BUT, if I was building it in a flinter AND using either a stock blank or a non-inlet as you have tagged, I would opt for a Chambers Late Ketland (sold by Track as a "classic Ketland" - same lock, same maker, different name).

If you didn't like the little pointed tail, a couple swipes with a file and it would look pretty much like the late English by L&R (see it here ).

Why the Chambers lock? Because according to Jim Chambers and many many builders it is the fastest/smoothest/most reliable flintlock built by Chambers (which can be translated into the "best off the shelf lock on the market today") - so something to consider since you are not "tied" to a specific lock due to a pre-inlet.

I like your trigger choice. If the L&R ended up on back order you will find that the Davis version looks about the same, goes for about the same price and is just as good (many prefer Davis over L&R, I use both and in many cases prefer L&R triggers - however, no issues with either).

I don't think your TG selection would look out of place on that stock - a fair choice - others would work as well, but if you like it, go for it.

For the butt plate I would suggest an "Early Plains" based both on the style of rifle and your aversion to a severe crescent butt plate (me too - have built a plains rifle and a pair of Ohio's with an early plains butt plate - very comfortable to shoot in 40 thru 54 cal).

This is the one I have used in both silver and brass ( here) and it would fit the stock of the choice you note.

The only other thing I would add to your list is a capbox - either the Leman (as sold by track) or one of the smaller (round lid) capboxes (the little Hawken one at Track, or their Plains Rifle box) would really finish the rifle off nicely (personally find the Leman box a little "gaudy", so would opt for one of the simpler round lid boxes) - "understated" looks better in my opinion on this style of rifle.

Man, you have me moving the Leman up on my to do list :hmm:

 

[44-henry]

The painted stripes can look surprisingly realistic if they are done right, plus, they are correct for this style rifle.

 

[galamb]

Agree, but it would be just as correct to simply use plain maple (without the stripes) or walnut.

Many examples of both still exist out of the thousands of rifles that came out of his factory.

 

[excess650]

I have to agree that the Chambers lock would be a better bet IF it was in stock.

I do have to wonder why a "cap box" would be suggested on a flintlock?

What I don't care for in the Lehman stock is the amount of drop. I've seen another pattern for a generic "fullstock Hawken" that had 2-3/4" drop at 14" LOP. I'm considering that pattern for a "trade gun" for my young nephew, and will combine it with a wider, flatter BP than normally seen during the "fur trade" era.

 

[excess650]

Agree, but it would be just as correct to simply use plain maple (without the stripes) or walnut.

Many examples of both still exist out of the thousands of rifles that came out of his factory.

I looked at an original M Fordney (Lancaster) that was curly maple but artificially striped. Several of us noticed this and found it odd.

 

[galamb]

My bad - thinking percussion - have seen very few pics of Leman flint's, although there must have been many.

 

[excess650]

I've just looked through some of my books and found photos of (2) H Lehman flintlocks. Both are of the Lancaster longrifle variety, heavily engraved, carved, and 4 piece patchboxes! The others are the typical later, half stock percussion variety including a 20" .70 smooth "buggy gun".

 

[tenngun]

Yes I am building a leman right now and while resercing it found many 4 piece patch boxs. I am building a nipple hugger and going with the lilly cap box but have seen several original lemans with patchboxxes on the precussion guns. Would have to look it up to be sure but I'm a thinking Carson owned a full stock precussion lemann that had a short barrel. If the photo I can see in my head it was a 24-26 inch long. I can remember the gun just unsure it was carsons.

 

[Davemuzz]

Graham,

Thanks for your (and all other's) response to my "fishing" for comments post. I really appreciate your comments as I consider you guys the experts on what to do, and what not to do.

Now, on the tiger striping of the wood, well....that's just not going to happen. I like the true look of wood and any type of painting by me would look like an amateur had done it. At least in my eyes.

Now, the reason for my L&R lock selection is two fold. First, I like the way the pan is made. I don't really know if that works well for keeping barrel water out, but it has to be better than a "regular" pan design. Second, I really like the looks of double throat cock. It's just different I suppose. The tail of the Ketland doesn't bother me at all....I just wish it had a double throat cock like the L&R does.

I like your suggestion for the butt plate. It looks good and looks comfortable to shoot. Also, it looks "easy" to shoulder with a heavy coat on. Not like a heavy crescent butt plate one. Seems to me a heavy crescent butt plate would "grab" and not shoulder quickly.

As for a capbox, well....in all honesty I'm just not a big fan of any capbox or patchbox's. For whatever reason, they just don't tickle my fancy. So, that's why there wasn't one on my list. I'm not afraid to inlet one....I just know no matter what, if I did I won't like it anyway!!! :idunno:

It's funny but each of us has his\her own likes and dislikes. Excess650 is not a fan of the drop in comb on the Lehman stock, where that's one of the features that I really like. OTOH, I'm 6'1" and have the neck of a crane, so for me it just fits. My current T\C 1.5" drop in comb is just built for folks who have had 3 vertebrae removed from their necks. :haha:

Well, again I thank you for you input. I don't know if it's "odd" to start with a barrel and build around it. But I bough this barrel about 6 years ago and it is just one really accurate shooter. The original stock and furniture it's on is a T\C kit package that I got back in 1980....so as you can figure, I'm a bit tired of it. Now I'm at a point in my life where I can do a few things that I've been....putting off for "later". Well....later is here.

I built a flint pistol about 1.5 or maybe 2 years ago and even though it's not perfect, it looks fairly good and it shoots better than I can. The guys here critiqued it and were a great help. I shoot it at the range and hunt with it and frankly, just have a great time with it. So, I'm sure the same will happen with this build...only I've learned from the pistol build, so perhaps this will be a bit better.

Again, thanks.

Dave

 

[excess650]

The rifle needs to fit its owner. :grin: My hunting rifles tend to be large caliber and lightweight, so a "straight" stock with wide, flat buttplate helps. If your current stock is a TC Renegade, I don't like that one either. :haha:

As for the L&R lock mentioned, it has the "full waterproof pan", so is a late flint period lock and appropriate for a Lehman.

Regarding the buttplate, a crescent is really meant to be shot off the arm and not the shoulder.

 

[Davemuzz]

Not that it matters, but FWIW my current T\C is a Hawken.

 

[excess650]

Did you make it to the Bushy Run MLer show?

 

[Swamp Rat]

Not a expert here but like Pretty wood. If you have the funds I would spend the extra $50 for that natrual curl for the work your going to put in it. Especially if your not going to tacky it up with a patch box. LOL. That big stock with nothing but nice curl sure would look good.

 

[galamb]

If you don't like a patchbox, absolutely leave it off.

Since Leman built so many rifles, you literally have dozens (if not hundreds) of choices as to how it was finished/decorated.

If you keep it to the common architecture, just about anything else "was correct".

And no, it's not uncommon to build the rifle around the barrel. Some barrels just beg to be built into a certain style of longrifle and a sub 36" straight barrel is yelling at you "I want to be a Leman" :grin:

 

[Davemuzz]

Did you make it to the Bushy Run MLer show?

Excess, I did make it over to that show on Saturday morning. I even convinced my wife to come along as I knew she would appreciate the art work that goes into the making of the finer rifles and handguns that were there. Some nice pieces....some just "stuff." You know.

Swamprat, I've considered going to a nicer wood, but this piece will be used not only for fun at the range, but also for deer hunting. Now, no matter how careful I am I just happen to be one of "those guys" that will bang a dent here and there in the wood or put a scratch here or there, and just give it that "hunted" look. I can't help it....I've been doing that for 40 years. I guess I'm paying too much attention to the woods and not enough to my local surroundings. (Except the muzzle...always know where that little item is!!)

So, fancier wood is just going to make me feel a little bit bigger tinge when I come back in and wipe the gun down.

Galamb, again, thanks for your comments. I know what I want this rifle to look like in my head and I feel very confident about having it come out the way I see it. I just needed some additional input and confirmation that I was going down the right road. I didn't want it to look like a '64 Rambler with a '12 Cadillac grill and number bolted on the front!!

Again, thanks for all of you post.

Dave

 

[excess650]

Did you make it to the Bushy Run MLer show?

Excess, I did make it over to that show on Saturday morning. I even convinced my wife to come along as I knew she would appreciate the art work that goes into the making of the finer rifles and handguns that were there. Some nice pieces....some just "stuff." You know.


Dave

Crappy weather, so not a lot of traffic in the show. Most of the guns were originals, but there were a few contemporaries...

Cherry would be another option for your stock. Treated with a lye solution (or exposed to UV light) will cause the wood to darken, so no stain needed. Its harder than soft maple, so not as likely to dent.

 

[54ball]

Chief Joseph’s Hunting Rifle
c 1860
After Chief Joseph and the US Army agreed to stop hostilities at Bear Paw in October, 1877, Joseph’s people were taken into exile. From the summer of 1878 until 1885, many of the Wallowa Band remained in Oklahoma. This .45 caliber rifle was used by Joseph for subsistence hunting. Prior to leaving Oklahoma for their new home on the Colville Reservation in Washington, Joseph gave the rifle to the Chilocco Indian School, near the border with Kansas. When the school was closed in 1980, the rifle was given to the Nez Perce Tribe.
Metal, wood. L 59.8 (Barrel), L 98.4 cm
Nez Perce National Historical Park, NEPE 9741

Note the extra sight notch and single pipe, suggesting that this rifle has been cut down. Note also worn away finish and striping.

RE Davis "Late" English

 

[LaBonte]

I do have to wonder why a "cap box" would be suggested on a flintlock?

perhaps because some original Leman's were made that way? Actually those so-called cap boxes (a modern term)were called and used as patch boxes in the day...

a rack of Leman's at Jim Gordon's NM Museum - note the two middle rifles with matching boxes - one flint one percussion.

The top two have the four part "ghost head" Leman patch box style - the two side panels by the way are inserted in slots loading from the butt plate end - not just inletted.

 

[galamb]

Dave,

plain maple still looks pretty nice. Have done a couple rifles with super plain maple which still has harder/softer areas, just not the tiger stripes you see with curly wood.

By using a very dark stain for a first coat (black water based), rubbing it down well then 3 or so coats of Walnut stain (oil based) over top, I got an effect that looked somewhat like English Walnut. Not bad from a "cheapie" red maple blank.

The largest advantage to using tiger maple comes if you ever want to sell the rifle.

A poorly finished tiger maple stock will fetch more money than an expertly finished plain stock in the "open market" because the striped stock just "looks more expensive" even if they are sitting side by side and potential buyers are not overly familiar with what they are looking at.