Trade Secrets

[Glenfilthie]

Do you have any? Do you believe in the concept?

The reason my formidable intellect is on this is because recently I shelled out pretty close to a hundred bucks on two books about carving. (I won't say which ones, the amount of knowledge derived from tutorial books is 'driver dependent'; you fellers with established shop skills would probably derive more out of them than I did. It would hardly be fair to slag an otherwise worthy set of books on my shortcomings).

But when I got my books there was very little real 'how-to' in the book. Instead there were alot of pictures and I am finding that I am having to do alot of 'trial and error' to pick up the skills I want. I had to go to other publications to get basics like working into supported wood, what 'snail trails' tell you about your tools and so forth. I am not upset by this; trial and error is the ultimate learning method and all my failures can be casually tossed into the campfire the next time some blackpowder geek is running ball. :wink:

What bothered me about the books was the fact that the author seemed to be conciously omitting information and being vague in other respects. Is it my imagination or was he protecting 'trade secrets'? :hmm:

It is of little import; there are other authors and more detailed carving books out there and even if this author revealed everything he knew and put it in a format I could use - I would still read these other sources as part of the hobby and rounding out my knowledge. This is just a random, errant thought I thunk you might like to discuss.

For me personally...no, I cannot be bothered with 'trade secrets', if somebody asks me nicely I will tell them everything I know. For me it's all about fun. I no longer care if somebody shoots more deer than I do, or better scores or has a more impressive rifle. From my perspective if you put more in you will get more out of it.

Just my two bits, your mileage may vary... :idunno:

 

[rich pierce]

No trade secrets that I know of. There's a limit to what the written word conveys. A good video or better yet a hands-on class or instruction from a good longrifle carver might do you better than books. There are many different styles and techniques of getting the same result carving also- there's no one approach. Each person has tools they like and use well. The 2 basic approaches are the "stabbing" method and the "V-tool method" of laying out relief carving. It seems that original makers used both, sometimes on the same gun. After that, any number of tools and approaches can be used to good result. I'd say learning sharpening and drawing are as important as anything else.

Everybody has little tricks they use, but unless they are reluctant to share them they don;t qualify as trade secrets. My "I don't think anyone else does this" trick is to solder a flat piece of 1/8" thick brass to the top barrel flat near the breech on the barrel I am inletting. Then by sticking a dowel in the muzzle and having that "handle" at the breech, I can lift the barrel straight up and out after transferring inletting black. Prevents transfer that happens just because of levering the barrel out muzzle first.

 

[RwBeV]

I have a real problem with "trade secrets". I am a fairly accomplished gunsmith, most of it has been self taught. I knew at the age of 10 that I wanted to be a gunsmith, unfortunately I didn't have the means growing up to go to any of the gun smithing schools. So I attended the school of hard knocks. I worked for several gunsmiths in my younger days, mostly just parts changers really. But at the time there where several very good smiths around here. I found out very quick that they couldn't be bothered buy some punk kid asking questions. I feel this school of thought is a load of manure. Now there all gone and there are no gunsmiths left in this town. So did the industry benefit from there not giving out "trade secrets"? I found other means of getting the answers I needed.

I am currently helping a young man who I met on another forum, build a suppository gun. I don't charge for my time I hope I'm planting a seed. I don't know if he will ever be a gunsmith but I hope he might take the ball and run.

Until I started looking at these forums I still ran into the "trade secret" problem once in a while but I found that most fellows on these forums are more than willing to help.

I cant help but think that keeping secrets cant possibly help our industry. If we don't pass on the knowledge its just gone.

OK I will get off my soap box
Bob

 

[Roy]

I only have secrets until someone asks me :haha: Basically if I do have any secrets I have no idea what they would be. I think that is the way with a lot of builders of today. Wonderful thing is that we all tend to do somethings a bit different from one another.
Good thing is that I can't remember anyone that has refused to answer a question that I have had about gun building yet. Tons of great builders out there that will tell you how they do something if you ask. :v

 

[jerrywh]

One thing I learned a very long time ago is this, A lot of people write books about subjects they know a little about. And--- Many readers assume what the writer is infallible. There are few exceptions when it comes to gun stuff. Even the best craftsman writers will occasionally write something in a book just to make others think he knows more than he really does. I detest this for one reason when you tell someone the truth you get the argument that the book says something different.
I usually never contradict one of these book writers. You are offending someone’s God when you do and you become an instant enemy.
Just for an example, just try saying something that contradicts Wallace Gusler and see what happens to you. I'm sure someone will now twist my words and say I blasphemed Wallace. However, that's the way this gun world is, especially the muzzle loading gun world.
The best and most reliable book I have ever seen on gunmaking is -[recreating the American longrifle] The best carving book is [Manual of Traditional Wood Carving] Never found on misleading statement in either.
Almost all of the usual muzzleloading tapes and books have some wrong information in them.
You just have to glean what you can from them.
PS- I do have a few secrets. I make part of my living teaching engraving and goldsmithing. . I'm not about to give it all away for free.

 

[Capt. Fred]

I've never felt like guys were holding back any secrets when I've seen questions asked. With guys like Jerry, Mike Brooks, Keith Lisle, and a whole slew of others on line and willing to share their techniques I can't imagine being able to learn it all.

I worked my way up through every job that exists in residential construction and one of my real disapointments was a lack of secrets to learn. There's good ways and better ways to do stuff but no magic. Some guys were good, some were very good, and a few were very good and fast. They all had their own techniques but no real secrets.

Regarding books, Jerry hit the nail on the head. I've read tons of books on building, job supervision, design, estimating, etc., and I was disapointed in just about every one of them. Either the authors really sucked at putting their knowledge down on paper, or they hadn't spent much time actually doing the jobs they were writing about.

 

[hoochiepapa]

I've never felt like guys were holding back any secrets when I've seen questions asked. With guys like Jerry, Mike Brooks, Keith Lisle, and a whole slew of others on line and willing to share their techniques I can't imagine being able to learn it all.

I worked my way up through every job that exists in residential construction and one of my real disapointments was a lack of secrets to learn. There's good ways and better ways to do stuff but no magic. Some guys were good, some were very good, and a few were very good and fast. They all had their own techniques but no real secrets.

Regarding books, Jerry hit the nail on the head. I've read tons of books on building, job supervision, design, estimating, etc., and I was disapointed in just about every one of them. Either the authors really sucked at putting their knowledge down on paper, or they hadn't spent much time actually doing the jobs they were writing about.

My last job was a heating and air conditioning mechanic. I had to serve a 4-year apprenticeship, and we had some old fogies that wouldn't share with the "new guy". I think they were just threatened because they didn't know their job as well as they should. I would ask them a question, and they would walk away and shrug their shoulders.

 

[Glenfilthie]

Mike my neighbour is a tin basher by trade and he made a comment I would like your take on.

The problem with the HVAC industry in his opinion, is that the guys in it fall into to categories.

The first, (and smaller, shrinking group) are the 'tradesmen'. They understand the problems, they can evaluate and implement new applications and can think their way through problems.

The second group (and growing)are what he calls the 'installers'. They are essentially robots that can follow a limited process by memorized rote - and if something new crops up they are fuzzbarred.

The books I refer to were not written or produced by a hack. Now that I think upon it, perhaps he was just a better builder than a teacher? There is certainly no sin in that.

This forum is an invaluable resource for sure.

 

[jerrywh]

That's another very good point. Some people are Masters at what they do but they are just not very good teachers. Some of the best craftsman in the world fit into this class.

 

[necchi]

I don't think there is so much "Trade secrets" as a knack or techique that an individual has.
Sometimes it can't be taught, it's just a gift that someone has.
Like the kid in school that was a math wizz when others struggle, it's just a gift.
And I find many "Gunsmiths" reluctant to offer advise, thnik about it, if the answered every "How do I do this" question, they wouldn't have any work.
That fact, and sometimes a technique requires a fundemental understanding of other operations, dispensing advise to folks that lack rudementary skills can add to the problem instead of helping.

Just because someone can dis-assemble a gun and put it back together doesn't make him a "Gunsmith", just like someone that put's together one kit, isn't now a gunbuilder, :idunno:

 

[hoochiepapa]

Mike my neighbour is a tin basher by trade and he made a comment I would like your take on.

The problem with the HVAC industry in his opinion, is that the guys in it fall into to categories.

The first, (and smaller, shrinking group) are the 'tradesmen'. They understand the problems, they can evaluate and implement new applications and can think their way through problems.

The second group (and growing)are what he calls the 'installers'. They are essentially robots that can follow a limited process by memorized rote - and if something new crops up they are fuzzbarred.

The books I refer to were not written or produced by a hack. Now that I think upon it, perhaps he was just a better builder than a teacher? There is certainly no sin in that.

This forum is an invaluable resource for sure.

Yeah, I'll go along with that, we had guys that could diagnose a problem without much effort, and we had the installers. I leaned toward the installer category because I liked the piping aspect. It was hard heavy work, especially the threaded pipe. We installed 4,5,and 6 inch copper pipe for the chillers, and I liked that.
My co-worker and I estimated we soldered 3,000 joints in one wing of our main bldg., and had only one leak-mine. It started with 5 inch pipe and down to 3/4 for the fan coils.

 

[Mike Brooks]

If I told all my secrets they wouldn't be secrets anymore....then what would I do? :idunno:

 

[Bruce Bogart]

Hey Glen, I'm a building tradesman. There are good hands, then there are tradesmen. There are people that do not have the aptitude to be craftsmen, no matter how much instruction they recieve. They do well enough to get by, but if there is an exception to standard operations, OH NO! There is room for all. Unfortunatelty I may never be a gun building craftsman, just a good hand :shake:

 

[jsn]

I was ivin a book written in 1977 It is titled: Do-It-Yourself Gunsmithing. it was written by a man named Jim Carmichel.

The book has many illustrations of work from begenning to the end of the project and lists of tools. It details for every section of how to do certain actions in the modification and building processes.

The varrious things covered in this book are as followed:

• A whole section on tools and skills
• Inletting
• Restocking firearms
• fitting forend tips
• fitting a buttplate
• altering stocks for better fit and feel
• fitting gripcaps
• how to glass bed a barrel
• checkering wood and metal from basic to fancy
• basketweave carving
• decorative carving
• fitting inlays curved and flat both wood and metal
• lapping actions
• how to build muzzleloaders
• how to quickly inlet a barrel
• sources to buy tools ( some are nolonger in buisiness because others bought them out)

I personally have read the 372 page book cover to cover three times. It has helped me alot in refinishing jobs. It also gives diagrams on jigs that can be a major asset in building like stock holding tools for carving.

 

[Zonie]

I don't think the authors of books like you mention intentionally leave out information. They just fail to include much.

As others have noted there are a lot of people who know how to do things. They just have difficulty in telling others how to do it.
This is often because they know exactly how to do it to the point that they don't even think about it.

Take for instance the many times I would have trouble with the CATIA 3D design system I ran.
I would ask one of our experts and he would come over and pick up the mouse and suddenly it was flying all over the screen clicking buttons and scrolling the view and suddenly wah-la, the task was done. Really used to P.. me off. It usually upset him too because I'd say, "Hold on there! Do it again, real sloooooly so I can see what the H... you did." :rotf:

I know when I'm writing a "how to" on the forum, the first time thru I'll leave out things because I've done them before and I don't even think about doing them. Then when I preview what I wrote and put myself in the readers place I can see where someone who doesn't know what I'm talking about will get lost so I add stuff to explain how and why to do those little "common sense" things that I left out.

I think the authors of many of these books just fail to put themselves into the new readers mindframe and then to proof read the material.

I suppose some publishing house proof reader might also read thru the proposed book and scratch out the things he feels are unnecessary. Those being exactly the necessary things we need to understand how to do stuff.

The bottom line is, teaching is not easy to do and while many authors are experts at what they do, they just never have had to teach it to others.

 

[ohio ramrod]

There is a reason that apprenticeship programs take so many years. You can only put so much details into a quick lesson. :hmm: But I also believe some people just don't want to give away what they consider "trade secrets" And if the first book leaves you with questions maybe you will buy the "Improved edition" :hmm:

 

[hoochiepapa]

When I was an apprentice, I would ask my half Apache boss how that worked, and he would say, "Magic."

 

[Bill Hall]

Must be an Indian thing Mike. I used to work with alot of Indian artists, and was contantly asking them how they achieved a certain effect on a painting or sculpture. One guy in particular, would always smile and say, "magic". I did all his canvas stretching for his paintings, and one time he asked me if I could make a canvas within a canvas, thinking it may be impossible for me to do. About a week later I brought the set to him, and he asked, "How the H--- did you do that?" I smiled at him and said, "magic". He gave the P.O.'d look until I told him magic worked both ways, then he just laughed. Bill

 

[hoochiepapa]

:rotf: :rotf: Way to go, Bill!!

 

[MSW]

often times it is assumed that if you have the book, you will be able to do the task...
:bull:

remember that much of what you are looking to do is a hand skill, and reading a book and then translating it to a hand skill is akin to checking out a book from the library and then trying to figure out how to swim.

you might have better luck if you take a look at American Pioneer videos- they helped me a great deal (even if my kids maintain that I'm beyond help).

best of luck with your project!