Trade Secrets

[jerrywh]

The graveyards of the world are full of indispensable men. I don’t believe there are any lost secrets.
The secrets of the past are only lost to those who don’t look hard enough or refuse to accept the logical answers.

 

[Capt. Fred]

Everybody is different. I suspect that the folks who pay Jerry for his secrets are getting their monies worth and then some. Just so long as the knowledge gets passed along is the important part.

One of my father's favorite sayings was that "knowledge is the one thing you can give away over and over and over and still keep" I try to live by that code. But that is just my personal choice.

I can completly see the hassle created by having folks stop by a shop unannounced. That actually seems kind of rude if you ask me. I wouldn't just stop over to somebody's shop uninvited and expect them to stop working to chat. It would be different if they were running a retail operation and customers were expected to be wandering in.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Yes, and NO, Jerry. There are trade secrets that old timers took to their graves that have yet to be rediscovered. For instance, back in the mid 19th century, Franklin Stoves were often made and sold with a decorative clay or "ceramic" piece that fit on the door of the stove. To this day, we can now make ceramic reproductions of these decorative pieces, that will withstand the expansion and shrinkage of being heated and cooled in a stove, but scientist and ceramic engineers have not yet found out How those originals were made.

And, my late friend, Oscar Gaddy, " Re-discovered" Bone Charcoal Case Hardening, after finding almost a dozen different "formulas" for the process in sources both here in the USA and in Europe- NONE Of which worked as written. The one step left out of ALL of the formulas was the need to aerate the water for the quench for at least a half hour before quenching. There were other missing "steps" from each of the formulas he found, but by finding them all, and putting them side by side, he was able to find those missing steps. However, It took consultation with a Professor of Metallurgy, and a Professor of Chemical Engineering( Oscar was a Professor of Electrical Engineering, and created the new Dept. of Electronic engineering at the U of Ill. ) to figure out that softening the water would produce the best colors.

Finally, when my Father left Sun Electric Co. in 1941 to work for Western Electric Co., he took with him his hand drawn electrical schematics for all the Sun Electric motors he worked on and repaired for the company as their " fix-it" guy. When I asked him why he took them, his comment was, " They didn't pay me for these!".

I suspect that this is the Reason so many people who have " Trade Secrets" still guard them jealously, and take them to their graves. In my father's case, had the company had the foresight to pay my father for his drawings, they could have hired Anybody to do his work. He tore down used motors that were sent in by customers, found out what was worn out or broken, Fixed them, and sent the motors back to the customer. During the Great Depression, when he was working for Sun Electric, people were sending in motors for early refrigerators sold before Dad was born. The company had kept NO records on those motors, so Dad had to take them apart, figure out how they were designed( UGH!) and repair them. People simply could not afford to replace their refrigerator. In many cases, they had a hard time coming up with enough money to ship the motors to the company for repairs. My father remembered he was making $24.00 a week at Sun Electric when he quit the company to earn $28.00 per week working for Western Electric. That was in September, 1941. Dad showed me his "Trade Secrets" before his death in the mid-1990s. :hatsoff: :grin: :hmm: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[RwBeV]

CowboyCS you and I would get along.... No lost secrets? We still have no idea how the pyramids where built. Electricity? I went through an electrical apprenticeship and made a good living as a journeyman electrician, I ran into allot of guys that wouldn't show there apprentices there "trade secrets" they lasted about 5 seconds on my jobs, they all said the same thing walking out the gate "you will see, you tell them kids everything and you wont have a job"!! (thats not all they said) Well they where right today I don't have a job but that was due to injury not giving away trade secrets. Boy it sure would be nice if Nicola Tesla would have told someone how he could drive 3 rods into the ground anywhere in the world and "get all the electricity you need" the best EE's in the world haven't figured that one out yet. There is a difference in lookie loo's and someone that is asking a serous question. I feel that I owe all the craftsmen that helped me out so I pass on those "Trade Secrets" but thats just me if you chose not to thats up to you. I don't have to make a living at this trade or any other, but I do want to see this craft grow and prosper. I dont see any problem in charging for your "Trade Secrets" but dont let one go to your grave just to keep it secret.

 

[Scharms]

I have been a FFL dealer for the last decade, and have 15+ years of gun repair-gunsmithing & machining experience (mostly pertaining to C/F rifles & pistols). I don't allow folks to watch my work mainly because it cuts into my bottom line. You hardly every run into an auto-shop that you are allowed to watch the mechanics work. Knowledge needs to be payed for, everyone needs to put bread on their table.

Having said that, Brownells puts out a series of books called Gunsmith Kinks that are very helpful as well as entertaining. They mostly relate to C/Fs but there is a lot of crossover info...

 

[Rolfkt]

A lot of what has been said in this thread, makes me very sad . I am a novice builder who has completed my first project "The silver kentucky pistols". http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/254814/post/957450/hl//fromsearch/1/

It this would not have been possible for me, without the guidance and advice from top notch builders on this site and espesally on the other site "American longrifle's".

I really hope people are willing pass on their knowlege to people who are honestly trying to learn the skills required. Traditional norwegian silver fillergree work almost died out because the old masters hoarded their skills and knowlege. Don't let this happen to american gunbuilding traditions.

Best regards
Rolf

 

[Mike Brooks]

I learned 99% of everything I know about gunbuilding on my own. That was back before the internet wass around and before all the videos.
I did PAY Lynton McKennzie to teach me to engrave. I also PAYED Conner Prairie to attend alot of their weekend seminars taught by some of the top gunbuilders in the country.
These days I'm PAYED to teach other the tradde. (Notice a theme here? :wink: )
Before you come down on me about my capitalist ways also note that I have put together two building tutorials for FREE one on this site and the other on my website. I also have given alot of information on this site for free on building guns...but not so much anymore.
I wonder how many of your bosses would allow me to go to work with you and look over your shoulder so I can learn how to do your job?

 

[matt denison]

I think this thread got split into two thoughts. I may be responsible for that when I replied to Billinoregon.

Most of the guys who have responded to this thread have offered advice on the forum for free just because..because. Myself included. We are passing on our expertise and experience. No charge, no problem. It's fun. And speaking for myself I want to help the other guy who hasn't had the breaks that I've had.

On the other hand I don't want some fellow, no matter how sincere in his yearning to learn, to be haunting me in my shop as I go about trying to keep the wheels of commerce rolling. I'm not being stingy, just practical. Besides, as one of my former boses once told me as I was giving my two weeks notice and offering to train someone to replace me, " that's ok, we don't want you to teach him your bad habits". :rotf: :idunno:

 

[Roy]

Heck I haven't been building that long.. and I can understand what everyone is saying. If someone comes into the shop they are basically waisting your time on making money.... but I do not think that is not sharing "trade secrets" :v I have learned tons from the different builders like Mike Brooks here on the forums. Typically it starts with me asking a question either here or through a pt. One thing that I learned a very long time ago is I do not ask why do they do something one way and not another.. or argue with them. I guess I do have more of a good working knowledge of who to listen to and who to ask though. :haha:

I let all sorts of people come by, but heck I am in a hard place to get to from where most people are :haha: so there for not too many visitors :thumbsup: or they are turned off by my dogs.. :hmm: Now if some one stops by out of the blue.. that will get to me as well. My best friends will even call before they show up.
I do have a big problem with people that just want to come and hang out, or want to watch me work. Sort of creepy and a waist of my time. I will however let people stop by if they need some help with their projects. :v

Now that being all said there are a few people that stopped by the shop and I feel that I have learned more from them then they could from me.. and one that I am the pest and go to thier shop on occasion :haha:

 

[Rolfkt]

Mike, I have read your tutorial several times and been a big help to me and other novice builders. I really appricate the effort you put into it. I know how much work is involved. I wish there were more tutorials like that on this site. I have written tutorials on,inlaying weddingbands, making silver triggergards and pistol buttcaps. All of these are posted on the "American longrifle site". Nobody else had written about the subjects, so I wrote what I'd learned by trial and error. Hopefully it helped some other newbies avoid the mistakes I made.

I really don't see why people should be afraid of sharing knowlege. Knowing how to do something isn't the same as requiring the skill to do it. It will take a newbie years of hard work to reach your level. Sharing the knowlege will give people a better understanding and apprication of your skills and craft. A lot of people don't know the amount of work/skill put into a handcrafted item.

This fall, I hope to learn basic hammer/chizel engraving. I have not been able find anyone who teaches this in Norway. I have bought some basic books and tools and am going to take a stab at this alone. I do hope, that when I get stuck, I can aske for help and guidance, without anyone feeling I'm a parasite or threatning their livlyhood.

Best regards
Rolf

Ps. I am not a sosialist or a commie.

 

[hoochiepapa]

What does this cost you? The engraving lessons.

 

[hoochiepapa]

You are a very fortunate young man. And thank you for your selfless attitude.

 

[Rolfkt]

Colin,
Thank you for your kind offer. My wife has a webcam on her pc that I could borrow. I've bougth the Lindsay sharpening templates + gravers and tried to do some straight lines. So far the results stink. I have a hard time keeping an even width and depth. I think part of the problem is that I'm going way to deep. I plan to try to follow the NRA manual "the basics of firearms engraving". I'll email you when I start on the course.

I've bougth your book on lock building. Interesting reading.

Best regards
Rolf

 

[Roy]

One thing about the Lindsay templates and using a chasing hammer is that you may want to change the angle of the face on the graver just a touch.. I found that the graver was too low for me to use with a hammer, great with his air tool but not with a chasing hammer.. Just by lowering the graver point by a little in the template will bring up the end where its more comfortable to use with a hammer. :thumbsup:

 

[jerrywh]

I must have given the impression that I don't give away any information. I doubt if any body on any of the gunmaking forums has given out any more info than I have. But there are a few things I just don't give out to just anybody. Why?
If everybody in the world know how you do everything it creates an attitude among people in general. When they see a piece of work they think ,that’s nothing everybody knows how to do that. I still maintain that there are no secrets. I don't know a thing that someone else doesn't know. I will help anybody who is sincere about learning how to learn the art. I can't waste my time on curious people who just want to argue or say they know how to do something. I'm under contract most of the time and I get paid a outrageous amount of money for a muzzle loading gun maker. This forum is just something I do on break to rest my eyes. I feel sorry for the newbie’s because I don't want them to have to learn the way I did. But with the internet and all they have it made. Back to work. I’m case hardening a gold inlaid double hook breach today.

 

[hoochiepapa]

Jerry! Pics please!
I for one appreciate your generosity.

 

[rich pierce]

Like I said before, we are fortunate to have pros here offering advice every day, so I am not so sure there's a lot of hoarding of secrets. At the same time, it's worthwhile to recognize the huge investment they made in their knowledge. Blood, sweat, tears, years, and money- so I don't have any kind of entitlement issues (about that, lol!).

 

[jerrywh]

Mike they are being destressed right now. I'll get some photos when they come out of the oven.

 

[Roy]

:thumbsup:

 

[jerrywh]

Mike there you are. I wrapped lots of wire around it so it would be blue to go with the barrels.
Mike Brooks.
You forgot to mention all the books you bought.
I have bought over $20,000.00 in books on gunbuilding and antique gunbooks.