-
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
Trade Secrets
- Thread starter Glenfilthie
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
I think we can all agree that "there is more than one way to skin a cat". I believe that one should be open minded enough to hear and consider all that is offered and, then, choose what methods and procedures suit you best. There are, however, some who believe that they have a monopoly on knowledge and will belittle and stifle those who do thing differently. This kind of intimidation serves, only, to silence those who,otherwise, would be willing to share. There is a lot of knowlege right here on this forum. Ask questions and keep an open mind. Also keep in mind that we all have different degrees of talent and resources. What works for one, may not work for another. That doesn't mean it's wrong.
hoochiepapa
75 Cal.
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2010
- Messages
- 5,853
- Reaction score
- 7
If I only learned one thing in my apprenticeship, it was, "everybody does things different".
This is a great thread.
Some folks are born teachers, and their books and videos are very useful: I think of the Sibleys' book on horn making; T.C. Albert's book on pouch making; Chuck Burrows' DVDs on leatherworking; and Tim Lively's"Knifemaking Unplugged," for example.
Other folks are born with so much skill and an eye for line that they can't account for the process that leads them from start to stunning finish. They'd make lousy teachers.
As to not wanting to share with an interested pilgrim, or at least let him quietly watch, I have less patience with this. I can respect that some folks just don't want anyone hovering about, breaking their concentration with questions, etc.
But when starting out in smithing, I asked a local knifemaker if he would let me just come watch him work for a couple of hours sometime and he said "no."
He makes fine blades, but I sure don't need one.
Some folks are born teachers, and their books and videos are very useful: I think of the Sibleys' book on horn making; T.C. Albert's book on pouch making; Chuck Burrows' DVDs on leatherworking; and Tim Lively's"Knifemaking Unplugged," for example.
Other folks are born with so much skill and an eye for line that they can't account for the process that leads them from start to stunning finish. They'd make lousy teachers.
As to not wanting to share with an interested pilgrim, or at least let him quietly watch, I have less patience with this. I can respect that some folks just don't want anyone hovering about, breaking their concentration with questions, etc.
But when starting out in smithing, I asked a local knifemaker if he would let me just come watch him work for a couple of hours sometime and he said "no."
He makes fine blades, but I sure don't need one.
Right, Mike. As a cabinetmaker, I was familiar with that old adage, "If you give a job to 5 different cabinetmakers, they will do it in 5 different ways. And, they will all be right."
The difficult part for a newbie is that if he was given some help by one of the more experience workers, somebody else would come along,see what he was doing, and try to show him a different way that was 'better'.
Paul
The difficult part for a newbie is that if he was given some help by one of the more experience workers, somebody else would come along,see what he was doing, and try to show him a different way that was 'better'.
Paul
matt denison
54 Cal.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2004
- Messages
- 1,786
- Reaction score
- 14
"...if he would let me just come watch him work for a couple of hours sometime and he said "no."}
It's too bad that you don't understand why he said no. Then you hold it against him. I wouldn't ask anyone no matter if they were a lawyer, a craftsman, a nurse or whatever if I could come to their work and stand around and watch. I've had guys say that they'd like to come spend time in my shop and just clean up just to be around and learn. Too bad, so sad, it ain't gonna happen. On the other hand if they have a question that I feel I can answer then that is OK. But who wants someone watchin over your shoulder destroying your concentration (or worse, seeing your every mistake :grin: )
Training someone is different. I expect to get something back for my time spent and believe me it costs money to train someone. While teaching someone else I could do the task at hand myself in half the time.
Answering questions about gun building for my customers is part of the job, I enjoy it, and I take as much time as needed BUT they have to do the work in their own shop/basement/garage NOT mine.
There is a difference between "giving freely of your knowledge" and "giving freely of your time". When I give freely of my time it is on my terms. I do seminars and demonstrations and give freely of both that way.
It's too bad that you don't understand why he said no. Then you hold it against him. I wouldn't ask anyone no matter if they were a lawyer, a craftsman, a nurse or whatever if I could come to their work and stand around and watch. I've had guys say that they'd like to come spend time in my shop and just clean up just to be around and learn. Too bad, so sad, it ain't gonna happen. On the other hand if they have a question that I feel I can answer then that is OK. But who wants someone watchin over your shoulder destroying your concentration (or worse, seeing your every mistake :grin: )
Training someone is different. I expect to get something back for my time spent and believe me it costs money to train someone. While teaching someone else I could do the task at hand myself in half the time.
Answering questions about gun building for my customers is part of the job, I enjoy it, and I take as much time as needed BUT they have to do the work in their own shop/basement/garage NOT mine.
There is a difference between "giving freely of your knowledge" and "giving freely of your time". When I give freely of my time it is on my terms. I do seminars and demonstrations and give freely of both that way.
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
laffindog, very well said.
Mike Brooks
Cannon
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 6,686
- Reaction score
- 33
No offence, but you'd get the same answer from me. When ever anybody "drops in" I quit work, shut off the lights and close up shop. It isn't fair to the owner of the gun I'm building to be distracted. I also don't hand out business cards, phone number or address at any local gunshows I set up at. If I did I'd have a shop full of loafers wasting my time, and time is money. I've had to run off several friends in the past as they were costing me a fortune with their visits and distraction. They didn't take the run off well either.... :shake:
Their are classes offered all over the country on how to build ML's. If you want to know how, take a class, don't expect a guy that is trying to make a living building guns to take time to teach you while taking money (time) out of his pocket.
Sorry, one of my pet peeves. :haha: .
Here is another main reason a lot of the very best builders don't share information.
First , let me point out that Monty Modarino, Mark silver, Wallace , Ron Scott, David Price, Judson Brennen, The house brothers, And some of the other very top in the field seldom if ever give out info on any of these forums. When I or any of them have tried in the past, the first thing that happens is you get an argument from a bunch of the less experienced usually stating that the info is wrong or there is some less complicated method that is better. Trying to help anybody soon results in insults and ego arguments. some seem more concerned about who is the smartest rather than what is the correct way of doing something. When someone who has been building guns for 40 or 50 years gives out info only to be told by a person who built two or three that the doesn't know what he's doing it's pretty insulting. So why bother. It's more fun just to watch these people go on staining their guns with manure, Browning with urine and trying to figure out how to drill a ram rod hole for the umpteenth time and hardening frizzens by old wife tale methods. I have been told by a person with one or two engraving lessons that I didn't know how to sharpen a graver. I see this stuff every day. People ask for advise and then just ignore the answer because it isn't what they want to hear. Except for the entertainment It’s a waste of time.
First , let me point out that Monty Modarino, Mark silver, Wallace , Ron Scott, David Price, Judson Brennen, The house brothers, And some of the other very top in the field seldom if ever give out info on any of these forums. When I or any of them have tried in the past, the first thing that happens is you get an argument from a bunch of the less experienced usually stating that the info is wrong or there is some less complicated method that is better. Trying to help anybody soon results in insults and ego arguments. some seem more concerned about who is the smartest rather than what is the correct way of doing something. When someone who has been building guns for 40 or 50 years gives out info only to be told by a person who built two or three that the doesn't know what he's doing it's pretty insulting. So why bother. It's more fun just to watch these people go on staining their guns with manure, Browning with urine and trying to figure out how to drill a ram rod hole for the umpteenth time and hardening frizzens by old wife tale methods. I have been told by a person with one or two engraving lessons that I didn't know how to sharpen a graver. I see this stuff every day. People ask for advise and then just ignore the answer because it isn't what they want to hear. Except for the entertainment It’s a waste of time.
Mike Brooks
Cannon
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 6,686
- Reaction score
- 33
.
:thumbsup:
Im 17 soo ive not been arround a verry long time let alone building many firearms (working on my 3rd one at the moment) I have gotten some buisiness restocking firearms for people and they have been pleased! I have found many of my meathods the same as some of you all here, but in the same right I have learned alot about how to do things like this. I enjoy doing woodwork and metawork and always enjoy learning new better ways to do things but I much prefer to choose the best for me by trying many methods. I do get annoyed as I should when a first year wood shop kid says I am doing everything wrong on a project but then I explain to them why and what I am doing hten they usually leave me alone. Most of the kids in my shop class if any will not be invited into my own shop it just wont happen for immaturity or danger. Thank you all for your help in these projects I have asked about btw. If I ask why it works better than an example i give I just want to know reasons why and how it works.
It's not simple building a rifle and just like in shop class some are going to learn fast and others are going to make stuff only a mother would cherish. There are tons of resources out there now compared to the 70's. DVDs, lots of books, seminars at gun shows and fairs, tons of online photos of everything, tutorials everywhere, and classes. It's easier now than ever before. But still, it's going to take effort and practice. In addition to books, etc I have binders of magazine articles at home sorted into categories like "rifle building", "contemporary makers", "Early American flintlocks", "golden age flintlocks", "horns", "edged weapons". Learning is a lifetime experience; enjoy it and don't rush things.
Nice thing about the House brothers is the videos and youtubes that let you "hang around the shop" for an hour or two to get a sense of the layout, the tools and the techniques without anyone's concentration being disturbed.
I certainly understand that having a shop full of pests and loafers (otherwise known as friends) would cost a master time and money and must be avoided. That's why I'd be willing to stand in the corner and keep my mouth respectfully shut.
I think the thing that got me interested in blacksmithing was watching a couple of smiths doing public demonstrations. I noticed that most people would wander by and watch for maybe a heat or two. Hours later, I was still there, watching, fascinated.
I certainly understand that having a shop full of pests and loafers (otherwise known as friends) would cost a master time and money and must be avoided. That's why I'd be willing to stand in the corner and keep my mouth respectfully shut.
I think the thing that got me interested in blacksmithing was watching a couple of smiths doing public demonstrations. I noticed that most people would wander by and watch for maybe a heat or two. Hours later, I was still there, watching, fascinated.
matt denison
54 Cal.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2004
- Messages
- 1,786
- Reaction score
- 14
There is another aspect to this;
I love going into another gunmaker's shop. Not to be a pest but to talk shop. I am priveledged to have been in many others "domain". If, for instance, Mike or Jerry were to casually stop by I would stop work but it wouldn't be long before we were poking around each others stuff and asking questions about tools and techniques. "how in heck did you do that?" Or, "where did you get that?" The owner would proudly display his new toys or latest project, mostly tools :grin: That is much different than having a friend or uninitiated ghost haunting from the shadows.
Now, I learned much of what I know by being the quiet one sitting off to the side quietly and listening - haunting if you will. I was lucky and showed a sincere desire and was respectful which insured a repeat invitation. It took years to get to that point. Invitation is the key word here. I learned about the birds and bees, souping up hot rods and some marksmanship skills this way. I learned the gunsmithing/lockmaking through training with a master, there is no other way.
I love going into another gunmaker's shop. Not to be a pest but to talk shop. I am priveledged to have been in many others "domain". If, for instance, Mike or Jerry were to casually stop by I would stop work but it wouldn't be long before we were poking around each others stuff and asking questions about tools and techniques. "how in heck did you do that?" Or, "where did you get that?" The owner would proudly display his new toys or latest project, mostly tools :grin: That is much different than having a friend or uninitiated ghost haunting from the shadows.
Now, I learned much of what I know by being the quiet one sitting off to the side quietly and listening - haunting if you will. I was lucky and showed a sincere desire and was respectful which insured a repeat invitation. It took years to get to that point. Invitation is the key word here. I learned about the birds and bees, souping up hot rods and some marksmanship skills this way. I learned the gunsmithing/lockmaking through training with a master, there is no other way.
hoochiepapa
75 Cal.
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2010
- Messages
- 5,853
- Reaction score
- 7
A good example of this discussion is my visit with Jack Brooks. He and I made a trade, and I asked him if I could go down to his place and see his shop. So I delivered my article, and picked up his, and he invited me into his shop which is right next to the front door.
I had died and gone to heaven. He has original locks hanging above his bench, and tools and parts everywhere. He even had a miniature Verner that he showed me that was beautiful. It was real, a shooter, in .25 I think, and he made everything except the barrel, which I think he said was a Rayle. We talked shop, and I got some pointers from him, and then we left.
Maybe not a fair comparison, because he holds classes there, but it's right along the lines of this discussion.
I had died and gone to heaven. He has original locks hanging above his bench, and tools and parts everywhere. He even had a miniature Verner that he showed me that was beautiful. It was real, a shooter, in .25 I think, and he made everything except the barrel, which I think he said was a Rayle. We talked shop, and I got some pointers from him, and then we left.
Maybe not a fair comparison, because he holds classes there, but it's right along the lines of this discussion.
I found out years ago that anytime someone was in my shop with me the serious work stopped and it became a social engagement. With deadlines to meet I had to fend off my bored friends.
I have tried to teach beginners(for free) but only one in a dozen ever completes a project. Most want to look over my shoulder while I make them a bow that they tell everyone they made.
The bottom line is only one in a thousand guys who want to make something have the same drive we had to learn our craft. The other 999 can eat up a lot of our time if you let them.
I haven't found my one in a thousand yet, when I do, I won't mind his company in my shop.
I have tried to teach beginners(for free) but only one in a dozen ever completes a project. Most want to look over my shoulder while I make them a bow that they tell everyone they made.
The bottom line is only one in a thousand guys who want to make something have the same drive we had to learn our craft. The other 999 can eat up a lot of our time if you let them.
I haven't found my one in a thousand yet, when I do, I won't mind his company in my shop.
matt denison
54 Cal.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2004
- Messages
- 1,786
- Reaction score
- 14
.."I haven't found my one in a thousand yet, when I do, I won't mind his company in my shop"
..and you might be suprised how much you may learn from HIM.
Teaching makes you actually think about things that you do as a matter of routine. I learned more about guitar by teaching than I had by practicing. When a student asks a question you have to think it through - that's when a light comes on and you open a new door to understanding just what you are/have been doing all along.
..and you might be suprised how much you may learn from HIM.
Teaching makes you actually think about things that you do as a matter of routine. I learned more about guitar by teaching than I had by practicing. When a student asks a question you have to think it through - that's when a light comes on and you open a new door to understanding just what you are/have been doing all along.
50cal.cliff
58 Cal.
You know I looked at this thread and just blew it off but, the more I think about it the more it bugs me!
I will say this everyone learns in different manners and teachers are all different in the way they teach!
Having said that I do have issue with those who say I am not about to share my secrets. I look at it this way if you do not pass on those secrets they will die with you and in some cases so will the trade you represent.
Oh don't get me wrong I do understand taking away from a man's living or being distracted while working. I did construction all my life and while it covered the ranges from industrial to commercial and building residental homes,remodel, repair, trim, custom cabinets, furniture. At one time or another I have done about all of it. But now to think about it I have been teaching most of my life. When ever I worked with others I was always showing them ways of doing things to either just learn how to do it or how to do it easier. And you would be surprised at how much I learned from otheres.I guess what I am saying that when I die I hope I passed enough knowledge on that it will help all those that I crossed paths with and a trade I worked in all my life will have someone to continue it!
I will say this everyone learns in different manners and teachers are all different in the way they teach!
Having said that I do have issue with those who say I am not about to share my secrets. I look at it this way if you do not pass on those secrets they will die with you and in some cases so will the trade you represent.
Oh don't get me wrong I do understand taking away from a man's living or being distracted while working. I did construction all my life and while it covered the ranges from industrial to commercial and building residental homes,remodel, repair, trim, custom cabinets, furniture. At one time or another I have done about all of it. But now to think about it I have been teaching most of my life. When ever I worked with others I was always showing them ways of doing things to either just learn how to do it or how to do it easier. And you would be surprised at how much I learned from otheres.I guess what I am saying that when I die I hope I passed enough knowledge on that it will help all those that I crossed paths with and a trade I worked in all my life will have someone to continue it!
I really don't know what people are talking about, when saying folks don't share "secrets". There are folks on here including professionals giving advice every day. Try that in a trade sometime- find a forum where a professional lawyer, plumber, auto mechanic, doctor, ballplayer is willing to explain to you how to best do something in their area of expertise.
