Traditional M/L Guns from India

[rickystl]

Rick,
The Sindh gun is a smooth bore.
If I remember right, about .45 cal.
I enjoyed our visit when you were up here Rick!
Now retired, it may be a while before we see you!

OK. Thanks. Most of the percussion Sindh shoulder guns I've seen have rifled barrels. But an occasional smooth bore shows up every once in a while. And they usually show up in smaller calibers like about .36-.45 They often have cool looking barrels. Anyway, it was neat to watch your buddy shoot one.
Email your shooter friend and tell him you know a guy in the States that has a Sindh rifle in shooting condition. Mine's a .41 caliber and takes a .400 ball. And tell him the trigger/guard on mine is in the "right" place. LOL !!!

Rick

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick
Lovely gun!
The trigger placement on Jason's
Gun feels real crippled to me!
I can't think what possessed anyone to place it like they did!

 

[MrTwelvette]

Hi Mr. T

Good job. Regular gun oil and 0000 steel wool often does wonders for old iron. The barrel bands may be old leather or rattan. That would also be common. Brass and iron were also used. Maybe one day you will decide to make a shooter with it. LOL From the photos you provided, it appears you may have a barrel that has a bore that is more traditional cylinder bore from muzzle to breach (?) And not the often encountered so-called anti-chamber. This would be worth investigating if you decide to shoot the gun.

Rick

Hi Rick. I've had a bore light and the ramrod down the barrel. I can confirm that mine is the common anti-chamber type, rather than the cylinder bore type. I'll chuck some semolina (wheat middlings) down it at some point to get an idea of chamber volume.

As far as bore size goes, it won't quite accept a .69 ball which is annoying as I have a 69 mold. As far as measuring bore size goes, I was thinking I could drill out a .69 ball, put in on some threaded rod and gently hammer it down the barrel a ways before withdrawing it and getting the calipers round this bore sized slug. I've never done it before and if anyone will tell me it's a bad idea I'll take that advice.

I may shoot it, but I have a slightly plainer and smaller toradar that I'm restoring already. That one's a bit knocked about and I'd rather shoot the tired gun than put wear on the nice gun

 

[rickystl]

Here is an interesting Torador musket - with a back-action percussion lock. First I remember seeing. Would be considered rare among other Torador muskets. There is an 1833 date (?) on the butt stock. But not sure if this is actually the date the musket was made. Back-action percussion locks didn't really come into vogue till sometime in the 1840's. In any case, this one appears to have been made as a percussion arm. The patina on all the iron parts appear to match. Also note, the hammer screw uses the so-called bun-nut style that was used on some 3rd Model EIC British muskets, and shows up on a number of Afghan Jazails. And the barrel appears to be tapered and flared full octagon. If I were still buying, I would have bid on this one.

Rick

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/a-fine-mughal-toradar-musket-4714219aa0

 

[TobJohn]

Baby Torador at the V&A

 

[rickystl]

Rick
Lovely gun!
The trigger placement on Jason's
Gun feels real crippled to me!
I can't think what possessed anyone to place it like they did!

Hi Pukka

That rear trigger placement seems to be a carry-over from the matchlocks of Eastern origins. My guess is that it was simply a combination of owner and builder preference. I would have a hard time getting use to it.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Hi Rick. I've had a bore light and the ramrod down the barrel. I can confirm that mine is the common anti-chamber type, rather than the cylinder bore type. I'll chuck some semolina (wheat middlings) down it at some point to get an idea of chamber volume.

As far as bore size goes, it won't quite accept a .69 ball which is annoying as I have a 69 mold. As far as measuring bore size goes, I was thinking I could drill out a .69 ball, put in on some threaded rod and gently hammer it down the barrel a ways before withdrawing it and getting the calipers round this bore sized slug. I've never done it before and if anyone will tell me it's a bad idea I'll take that advice.

I may shoot it, but I have a slightly plainer and smaller toradar that I'm restoring already. That one's a bit knocked about and I'd rather shoot the tired gun than put wear on the nice gun

Hi Mr. T

OK. so you were able to confirm the barrel is of the anti-chamber variety. That is the most common type we encounter with these barrels. Especially if determined they are from Central to Northern India.
Another option to measure the nominal bore size would be to purchase a plain "long arm" inside caliper. These can be bought online very inexpensive. (no gauge). Then take that result and measure with a standard caliber if you already have one. You want the plain caliper to reach at least 6 inches (15+cm) into the bore. The "swell" at the muzzle is probably only about 1 inch or so.

Cream-of-Wheat cerial also works well for checking the volume. Let us know what you find out.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

You guys have to see this. Currently soon to go to auction. This matchlock is likely from South India IMO. But check out the rear sight !!!!

Rick

 

[rickystl]

 

[leadhoarder]

OK. Thanks. Most of the percussion Sindh shoulder guns I've seen have rifled barrels. But an occasional smooth bore shows up every once in a while. And they usually show up in smaller calibers like about .36-.45 They often have cool looking barrels. Anyway, it was neat to watch your buddy shoot one.
Email your shooter friend and tell him you know a guy in the States that has a Sindh rifle in shooting condition. Mine's a .41 caliber and takes a .400 ball. And tell him the trigger/guard on mine is in the "right" place. LOL !!!

Rick

View attachment 304906View attachment 304907View attachment 304909View attachment 304911

This one has a pistol grip to scare the libs.

 

[Conrad von Hotzendorf]

Here are some images I found online of "kamr" belts. These are firearms accessory belts for Indian muzzleloaders, worn around the waist. They contained all the maintenance tools and accessories for loading. This could include a powder flask/priming flask, storage pouches/boxes, and powder chargers. There was no standardization, so the contents depended on personal preference and regional style. The accessories that others showed in this thread were probably attached to a kamr.

Some of you (especially rickystl) will be familiar with the ones that come from Afghanistan. The first picture mentions that one came from Afghanistan, and another from Persia.

The word "kamr" is related to the Hindustani (Hindi/Urdu) word "kamarband". According to wikipedia, "kamar" means "waist", and "band" means "to fasten", and this is where the English word "cummerbund" comes from.

Here's a link to the Google book where I found the first picture:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Glossary_of_the_Construction_Decoratio/chVfUm2Hz3MC?hl=en

The second picture I found just by googling "Indian kamr" and going to images. It states that the belt holds "cartridges" but I think this just refers to what I called "powder chargers", which is just a tube of gunpowder. In my mind, "cartridge" means "paper cartridge", but I have not found any evidence that paper cartridges were used with traditional Indian muzzleloaders.