Traditional muzzleloading on the wane?

People don't like Pay Pal's 'no guns' policy, so they take it out on the forum. How convenient. :haha:

Traditional muzzleloading is on the decline because fewer people care about history. They want fast, easy, everything. Heck, they don't even teach history anymore.

So in one sentence I am supposed to throw away the principles that history has taught me and go with paypal because it is a "fast, easy" way to support the forum. In the next sentence though I should set aside fast and easy and hold onto the History.

Now I'm confused...maybe it's fast, history, easy or is it easy, history, fast or maybe...I'll stick with the principles that history has taught me.

I appreciate you sticking to your "principles".

I assume you also boycott anti-gun Google? What do you use to search the internet?

 

[tatman731]

IMO The elitist attitude has no place in any forum. It damages far more than helps. In the early ninties when 3D bow shoots were a huge thing I was the only one shooting a recurve. All the sudden alot of the guys got into traditional archery and wouldnt you know equipment prices climbed. The same guys that shot 1000.00 dollar compounds couldnt just shoot a bear or a pearson, they had to have full custom bows and arrows. They had to be better than anyone else and they thought they were! Same thing in ML. I remember CVA Bobcats for 59.99. Now used 200.00. Why,virtually no hand fitting on a factory rifle. The unmentionables are 100 bucks or less sometimes. Not any easier to make those than a plastic stocked "traditional" gun. :stir:

 

IMO The elitist attitude has no place in any forum. It damages far more than helps. In the early ninties when 3D bow shoots were a huge thing I was the only one shooting a recurve. All the sudden alot of the guys got into traditional archery and wouldnt you know equipment prices climbed. The same guys that shot 1000.00 dollar compounds couldnt just shoot a bear or a pearson, they had to have full custom bows and arrows. They had to be better than anyone else and they thought they were! Same thing in ML. I remember CVA Bobcats for 59.99. Now used 200.00. Why,virtually no hand fitting on a factory rifle. The unmentionables are 100 bucks or less sometimes. Not any easier to make those than a plastic stocked "traditional" gun. :stir:

What elitist attitude regarding muzzleloading? Are you saying that promoting tradition is elitist? I don't understand.

 

[tatman731]

Not at all. What Im saying that there are people in the sport that thinks if your gun doesnt look exactly like a real Hawken,Kentucky or Bess its junk. Look at all the crap CVA andJukar has taken on this very forum. India guns also. Everybody does not have 2000.00 to spend on a rifle. Right now I have none! Part of tradition is learning to get by on what you have not what you want. That is the problem with this country, if it breaks buy another.Greed and vanity run amuck in this country. I spent a huge part of my life in the US Marine Corps and I love this country .

 

[Kentuckywindage]

I run a forum as well, mine is roughly $24 a year for the domain + some other costs when i upgrade simple things to make things a little cleaner.

I assume you're using free forum software, most likely "phpBB", on a shared server, like most forums?

My server space alone costs $150 per month.

Yep exactly, Im using Forumotion. Its very easy to use and very little problems over the past 5 years. It used to be free, but I wanted my own domain name.

 

[AZbpBurner]

I read this forum daily and I'm in the 'No Paypal' camp. When the pay by check option becomes available, my check will be in the mail.

So what's wrong with Pay-Pal??

Nothing. Nothing at all. Especially for gun-related purchases.

It's quite convenient, and it's a great comfort to me knowing that there's a buncha wrinkley-butt anti-gunners having a stroke whenever I use it for my shooting supplies.

 

[Idaho Ron]

What elitist attitude regarding muzzleloading? Are you saying that promoting tradition is elitist? I don't understand.

I can tell you what one of elitist attitudes is. Every thread that comes up about Conicals end up being a fight because the PRB boys get on the thread and say that the person should switch to PRB. They got hammered for choosing to use a conical so they won't post. The leading instigator in the fighting is also a moderator, and he attacks me every chance he gets.

Then you got the guys that say there was no gun made in history that the TC Hawken or Renegade resembles. So what!! They are still a traditional rife. No they are not HC/PC but they are traditional.

I use paper patched bullets for hunting. Paper patching has been around since the 1860's but there are guys here that don't like that I post about using paper patched bullets because the bullet I use is not HC/PC. Then there is no written history of a Paper Patched bullet ever being used to hunt with. And those same guys don't think we should talk about hunting with a Paper Patched bullet because there is no historic proof of them being used.

SO YES there is an elitist attitude and it is driving new people away.
Ron

 

[ChrisLJ]

I have to admit that in the short time I've been coming here it seems like there are those who have a rather anal attitude towards that which doesn't meet their standards of acceptability. Personally I couldn't care less if someone owns a gun that doesn't appear to be time warped from 250 years in the past; if I like it then I like it. Kinda like with art, it's subjective.

Of course if your into all of the "period" stuff then that's okay with me too, but I don't want to be treated like a redheaded stepchild because I'm not. I've been into airguns for awhile now, and my favorite forum is very open minded. It doesn't matter if you're into cheap BB guns or multi-thousand dollar big bore custom rifles, everyone has a place there. And for the most part there are few negative attitudes towards each other, and rudeness isn't tolerated at all.

All in all, this is one of the best forums I've ever been involved with, and I'm very happy to be here. But now I'm feeling guilty about not being a paying member, so I guess it's time to utilize the PayPal. I've just recently started using it (and eBay) since there are many places that demand it.

But one thing I will never use again is Google. They are evil incarnate. :shake:

 

[Claude Mathis]

I run a forum as well, mine is roughly $24 a year for the domain + some other costs when i upgrade simple things to make things a little cleaner.

I assume you're using free forum software, most likely "phpBB", on a shared server, like most forums?

My server space alone costs $150 per month.

Yep exactly, Im using Forumotion. Its very easy to use and very little problems over the past 5 years. It used to be free, but I wanted my own domain name.

It looks like we've got three topics going here (partly my fault)

I pay $8 per year for a domain name, but that's the least of my expenses. :wink:

 

I read this forum daily and I'm in the 'No Paypal' camp. When the pay by check option becomes available, my check will be in the mail.

So what's wrong with Pay-Pal??

Nothing. Nothing at all. Especially for gun-related purchases.

It's quite convenient, and it's a great comfort to me knowing that there's a buncha wrinkley-butt anti-gunners having a stroke whenever I use it for my shooting supplies.

Using Pay Pal to support a pro-gun forum is poetic justice. Besides, it's not the buyer who supports Pay Pal, it's the seller. Claude pays Pay Pal, not the premium members.

 

[Kylongrifle]

I cant say much about any attitude on this forum as Im pretty new here but I have run into it out here in the real world. just because T/C made most of my muzzleloaders then they look down on my choice of firearms. Of course the Jeremiah Johnson jokes never get old :grin: The fact is Id love to have any number of custom muzzleloaders but right now they will have to wait. We run a blacksmith shop and work with period correct pieces all the time but that's just not what Im in it for at this point..Im all for preserving history, Im a big history buff but there are some guys out there that use history as a ladder to get up on their high horse with.. :wink: I say have fun with it, be helpful to others and enjoy the sport..Dont worry about what the other guy shoots..Its all good. :thumbsup:

 

[galamb]

I started out with a Lyman trade rifle and shot "other than PRB".

Had I been called names and otherwise treated like a leper I never would have progressed to the point of where now my rifles are at least "possible examples" from an original builder.

I would rather see 100 shooting Lymans, T/C, Traditions etc at the local range than a single guy shooting a screw for screw bench copy of a Dickert.

If that were the case maybe I wouldn't have to drive 4 hours to find black powder and pay $30 bucks a pound for it when I got there...

 

[Kentuckywindage]

I run a forum as well, mine is roughly $24 a year for the domain + some other costs when i upgrade simple things to make things a little cleaner.

I assume you're using free forum software, most likely "phpBB", on a shared server, like most forums?

My server space alone costs $150 per month.

Yep exactly, Im using Forumotion. Its very easy to use and very little problems over the past 5 years. It used to be free, but I wanted my own domain name.

It looks like we've got three topics going here (partly my fault)

I pay $8 per year for a domain name, but that's the least of my expenses. :wink:

LOL Thats okay though, it helps keep a thread going and then someone else comes along and brings it back to the main topic and then more join in until it goes back to something else.

 

[Claude Mathis]

It looks like we've got three topics going here (partly my fault)

I pay $8 per year for a domain name, but that's the least of my expenses. :wink:

LOL Thats okay though, it helps keep a thread going and then someone else comes along and brings it back to the main topic and then more join in until it goes back to something else.

I didn't move this to non-muzzleloading, because then most members wouldn't see it. This thread will be an exception. I think PayPal, Forum cost and the demise of Tradition Muzzleloading are of interest to everyone.

 

[jethro224]

As to support of the Forum; Thanks Claude! :hatsoff:
It's only been the last 2 or 3 years that Claude has even accepted any $ for support. Before that there was no "Premium Membership" even available. Claude did it all out of his own pocket.
Any other form of payment, cash/check/money order, would entail a lot of extra administrative work to keep track of who has paid and who owes, who's check cleared, who' membership expired, etc.

Thanks to all of the Premium Members who have contributed $ to the Forum. You have helped make it/ keep it as good as it is. :hatsoff:

Also, thanks to the regular members. You are also the reason this is a great forum.

As to the decline of Traditional Muzzleloading in general;
I put most of the blame on the media. Young people and beginners have seen all kinds of ads and articles in magazines and watched all kinds of hunting shows on TV, all of which only promote the new fangled kind of muzzleloading. Many go so far as to claim the traditional equipment is unreliable and not up to the task. Newbies believe it because that is all they have ever heard.
Most beginners are only interested in muzzleloaders at all so they can hunt an extra deer season. That's what got me started shooting muzzleloaders... Little did I expect that I'd become so fascinated by, and involved in, the whole hobby. But, I started out with a "traditional" CVA sidelock. Figgered, if I was gonna hunt with a muzzleloader, I should use a "REAL" muzzleloader... Then I found this forum and met some great folks. Just look what can happen. :grin:

On the "Traditional" vs. P/C front and running off new people;
Sure there are those who stand at both extreme ends of this argument. Some guys think a flint rifle with a vent liner is not traditional enough and other guys claim their plastic-stocked-fibre-optic-sighted-pistol-primer rifle is the very epitome of "Traditional" because it still has a sidelock.
Well, get over yourselves, the other 98% of us are willing to shoot or argue with either of you under the traditional banner so long as you're civil. Even if your way is different than ours.
Keep in mind tho that this IS a discussion forum. Everyone here has their own opinion and most are more than willing to share theirs. If theirs differs from yours don't get all upset about it and quit shooting muzzleloaders. If you do, it's your loss.

And the conicals thing... There's only one guy I can think of who argued against anyone ever using/discussing them, and he doesn't post here any more. Most, or at least many, members who think a conical is necessary to kill a deer have never tried a round ball.
Those of us who recommend the patched round ball over the conical are just offering our opinion. If you don't like it then skip over it. Easy as that.
Never in my recollection has anyone ever been told to quit posting or shooting because they have asked about all-lead conicals. (the plastic-wrapped ones are banned from discussion) They have been told that a PRB will get the job done, is cheaper, and IS traditional. What's so bad about that? :hatsoff:

 

[jamesthomas]

[/quote]
("Using Pay Pal to support a pro-gun forum is poetic justice. Besides, it's not the buyer who supports Pay Pal, it's the seller. Claude pays Pay Pal, not the premium members.")[/quote]

That's what I think also, Plus its only $18.00 a year. I think its well worth it to be able to participate in the other forums. I've paid for other people to get a Premium Membership, and I'll probably do it again as Christmas presents. I'm pretty poor in the money department, but $18.00 for a year is a very good deal in my book and I see using Pay-Pal polices as an excuse not to help Claude maintain this forum very hardheaded.

 

[mooman76]

I first got into ML shooting about 25 years ago on the idea of an extra hunting season when few people hunted back then. The unmentionable MLs were vary expensive and few of them made so you didn't think much of them. Little did I know how much fun they were until I started showing up to a club meet and it was fun then. I don't have one close by now to go to but hopping some day when I move, I can find another.

 

[Sean Gadhar]

Using Pay Pal to support a pro-gun forum is poetic justice.

:hatsoff: heck if I wasn't already, after reading that, I'd go sign up with paypal just to spend my $18 here :wink:

 

[Alden]

Well of course people should help support a fine BB with good people if they reasonably can.

As for "the thread counters," although I too think they marginalize and dismiss people and their particular arms that are not the museum-quality replicas they themselves might be able to define off of the tops of their heads, I think they do so half (give or take) unintentionally.

They have forgotten more than I'll ever know about a particular, specialized, subject. And though I am critical of their demeanor and disposition I also acknowledge that they are, indeed, expert. Our purists. A cornerstone. In the final analysis they advance this safe shooting sports discipline. They are a big part of the difference between a dedicated website of historical blackpowder enthusiasts and a single page on a gun forum overpopulated by ignorant pimply-faced Call of Duty veterans schooled by inbred, clique-ish, big fish in "their" small ponds.

I hate the expression, as do most Americans, but it fits: as someone already said "it's all good." Well, in truth, it should, and can, be if it isn't already.

This site, the related hobbies, the efforts of the Administrator and the Moderators, and all the clicks of readers as well as posts of paying and even non-paying members are a labor of love.

Lest we forget brothers and sisters.

 

[Adui]

I've run a forum, I know the costs. It doesn't have to be expensive. No offense intended for Claude!

However, even as I am a contributor to the forum I can easily understand why some don't. They simply cant afford it. I cant pay all my bills and go deeper into debt every month till I find better employment. I pay for my time on here from birthday funds, and as a gift to myself, (please don't worry about that Claude, its well worth it to me to help support something I love).

I will never begrudge someone else for not paying, and no one else should either. Truth of the matter is times are hard, and some of us are just plain poor. My ML shooting, and all my shooting these days is done mostly with supplies I've garnered in times past when I was better off.