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Traditional muzzleloading on the wane?

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HEY MA!

I know your not going to believe this but Alden just made a great big post and he didn't mention our dinner even once!

This calls for a celebration! Get out the Maple sirup tonight an' the butter too.
Best throw another couple of cups of grits into the pot too. I'm feeling real hungry tonight.

:rotf:
 
I agree... my father always said an expert is someone who studies more and more about less and less, until they know every thing about nothing.

I consider myself a jack of all trades and master of none. I would love to be able to build some of the guns I see on this forum, however I'm not that talented. My passion is to find old original guns that I can make sure are safe to shoot and then bring them back to life to have a voice that has been silent for who knows how long.
 
Alright, ALRIGHT! Now don't make me sorry I picked up my guitar to sing kumbaya with pagans...

I'm betting there's hardly a drop of maple syrup and not a pat of real butter in Mrs. Butterworth's but I forgive her too.
 
When I started attending shoots, I had the benefit of sitting at the camp fire with folks like Ron Griffie and Hoppy of H&H Barrel works, an old gun smith named Pat Miller and others. They would argue muzzleloader twist, shape of rifling, whether Alex Henry's, or Harry Pope's rifling could make a target muzzle loader, the best sights, These arguments went on into the wee hours, as long as the beer held out. I sat there in silence, in awe of these people. For the longest time, I had trouble figuring out what they were saying and talking about. Then I realized these gents and their arguments were the best shooting apprenticeship a person could have. They would get so animated and upset with each other at times, I thought sometimes a fight would start. Other times a person would stomp off in anger. And the time, Griffie showed up with a thumbhole stocked percussion target rifle, and the stock was painted metal flake green, just to irk one of the others.

There is indeed a time for hotly spirited discussions and they can be quite educational Through the years at all those camp fires and matches, no one ever called names, although there was always profanity.

To an extent, this forum has become the campfire for newbies to sit, listen and learn. If there are hotly contested issues about some subjects, so be it.
 
Alden said:
, I think they do so half (give or take) unintentionally.

They have forgotten more than I'll ever know about a particular, specialized, subject. And though I am critical of their demeanor and disposition I also acknowledge that they are, indeed, expert.

Maybe intent is the key, that and terms :idunno:

Case in point farmer, hobby farmer, gardener all grow corn.

While I can be fascinated by those that work diligently at having an authentic kit (down to the fold of the blanket), I'm not one of them.

I once stood bear legged & thigh deep in an icy creek for the experience of catching a muskrat by the tail by hand. When I climbed out muskrat in hand crossed 100 yards of 15" deep snow and got to my fire....I had had a mountain man experience. I was fine with the fact that my blanket was wwII olive green.

Gosh this is hard to put into words. I guess what I'm trying to say is. . . my fear, founded or not, that someone would go on about what was not authentic in this experience keeps me from ever posting the story in say trekking or Rocky Mt. Fur Trade
 
Thanks for that post. It was my outstanding good fortune to sit around a few fires with the guys who got the 'new' muzzleloading era started. I was in awe of some of that knowledge. Thanks for reminding me of some treasured memories and of our responsibility to do similar for the new generation interested in our passion. :hatsoff:
 
Not an answer to any given post but some thoughts about this thread:

Passionate discussions about things like which gun is best suited for a given purpose doubtless have their roots far far back in time with similar cave side discussions about spears.

A point that some overlook is that we are all, in our own way, trying to be helpful:
When someone asks about a particular gun, comments about stopping power may not be of concern to a target shooter, mentioning that it is not accepted at a reenactment likely is of no importance to a hunter, and the fact that it doesn't produce good groups is perhaps not high on the reenactors priority list. But ALL valid observations help produce an informed consumer; one who is perfectly free to decide for themselves what applies to them and if nothing else, will be aware of factors that influence things such as resale/trade in value that they may not have have originally considered. You have to have some knowledge to even know what what to ask about. When someone says that something is not important, what they generally mean it that it is not important to them. It may be very important to another. Terms also can mislead us.
When someone says that a gun is historically incorrect, that does not mean that it is not a very good gun for hunting; when it is called inaccurate, it is not always clear whether benchrest or hunting standards are in play.

Re the topic of waning interest, I fear that it is true. Based on what I see at ranges & gun shows, black plastic pistols and military looking rifles are the growth part of today's shooting and while I see more women out than before, overall, shooting sports seem to be in a decline as urban areas grow and rural populations shrink and the media/schools demonize guns.
 
Claude,
I'm drawn to the political stuff like a moth to a flame and frankly I feel much better about the forum and my fellow forum members since the political and off topic stuff is not accessible to me.
Can one simply donate and still not have access to those areas?
 
Well first we have to define what "Traditional Muzzleloading" is before we can say it is waining.

Apparantly that is an individual appraisal, as some folks consider percussion revolvers traditional - even though they do not load at the muzzle.

Whether you dress in period attire does not matter. That's reenactment or experimental anthropology/archeology and not muzzleloading.

Period correct has to be specific to a period, so you would have to cut-off in stages at whatever period you choose to be correct to. Most of us here are "Period attempt" rather than Period correct. Personally, I'm not spending the day hunting at 12°F with moccasins wrapped in hides. I just can't do it. Instead, I limit myself to a weapon and accoutrements that would be instantly recognizable to one of the original invasive settlers who inhabited this area in the 1780's.

Period.

"Traditional Muzzleloading", to me, is dictinct from modern muzzleloading (those synthetic power burning _line things and "race guns" with Lyman sights or scopes), historical reenactment and reenactment.

If you have a different take on it - fine. Have fun but don't expect me to kiss you on both cheeks and buy you a drink. I will coexist without commingling.

Is traditional muzzleloading on the wane? Possibly. But if you look at actual numbers of flintlocks sold it is probably consistant. Those types of hunters/shooters that bought a T/C percussion to extend their season in 1980 now buy a 209 primered Whiz-Bang modern muzzleloader. Most had and have no real interest in historical accuracy other than bragging rights.

CW era arms are still popular.
 
Then you got the guys that say there was no gun made in history that the TC Hawken or Renegade resembles.
Link The Modern Sidelocks Place in pre-1870 history A Sticky

Most of these discussions start with, I can't get a good group with a conical/sabot out of my rifle designed for round ball. Or, I'm new will pyrodex pellets and sabots work well in a flintlock longrifle. Or, PC and HC folks are ruining the hobby because they would not let me use my TC and Blue Jeans for Rev War.

Traditional shooting/reenacting/collecting are all different pursuits. Some, especially the agenda driven, get offended and wrapped around the axle in a topic that really does not apply to them or their interests. In fairness to you I know this works both ways.

IMHO to say that aspect of human behavior and ignoring culture, economy, media, ect. ect. ect is the doom of the whole sport is ludicrous.
 
Adui said:
I've run a forum, I know the costs. It doesn't have to be expensive. No offense intended for Claude!
No offense taken and "expensive" is a relative term. We get what we pay for.

I choose not to run free software on a shared server - My choice. If it becomes unaffordable, I'll close down the forum and life will go on. :)
 
Thot this was an interesting and maybe a not so accurate statement made in another topic.

In response to MeteorMan

i hope your friends injuries soon heal.

It is not often that folks use smokeless powder in muzzleloading guns. This is somewhat surprising since many thousands of new muzzleloader shooters enter our ranks every year.
 
My favorite part about spending my $18 here is the gold star by my name! If you saw my school records :blah: you would know the gold stars were few and far between. :grin: :haha: :rotf:
 
54ball said:
Most of these discussions start with, I can't get a good group with a conical/sabot out of my rifle designed for round ball. Or, I'm new will pyrodex pellets and sabots work well in a flintlock longrifle. Or, PC and HC folks are ruining the hobby because they would not let me use my TC and Blue Jeans for Rev War.

Traditional shooting/reenacting/collecting are all different pursuits. Some, especially the agenda driven, get offended and wrapped around the axle in a topic that really does not apply to them or their interests. In fairness to you I know this works both ways.

IMHO to say that aspect of human behavior and ignoring culture, economy, media, ect. ect. ect is the doom of the whole sport is ludicrous.

I am going to politely disagree.
The topics don't always start with someone wanting to shoot sabots/or conical's out of a round ball twist. Some of these bashing marathons start out with a guy wanting to find a conical that will fit their needs. Why those threads can't stay on topic is beyond me, but a moderator leads the assault half the time. But the guy wants to use a conical why do the PRB boys show up in the thread to make the guy feel like he should change to their way of thinking? If it is a topic that they don't like pass the topic. But no! We have guys that go on to those threads to belittle the guy and make him feel bad for his question. Then you never see that person post again.
To be honest I don't ever remember a post that someone said HC/PC guys would not let them in an reenactment because they had a TC or blue jeans. Maybe they did I didn't see it. Reenactment is a whole different game and no one would want to change that, it is what it is and I think it is cool but nothing I want to do. But reenactment is not the same as traditional muzzleloader hunting. Most of the threads I go on are about hunting, or shooting getting ready for hunting.
For me to use anything that makes my shot less than perfect is not ethical in my book. If I know my TC Hawken is able to shoot 1" groups at 100 yards then it is my ethical duty to use the best I can to make the kill as clean and humane as possible. To use anything less than the best you can possibly do is unethical.
Ron
 
Of course there are always variables, but the point I was trying to make was, Some guns by design shot balls better, some by design shoot conicals better. Arguments ensue when the topic of the thread drifts from whats best in that rifle to the debate of RB vs Conical.

To not get too far off topic for this thread, finding that load takes effort. Traditional arms require time, expense and effort to master. Since it's not plug and play, the days of the isles at WoolCo, KMart and Wal Mart filled with smoke pole goodies are over.

Does that mean that the Traditional hobby is waning? No, I think it's pretty stable and these activities and pastimes that were once more general have moved to more of niche activity.
 
Sean Gadhar said:
If you saw my school records :blah: you would know the gold stars were few and far between...

Nah Sean, we don't need to see them...

:grin: :haha: :rotf:
 
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