traditionalist - Are we Loosing the Battle

[Carbon 6]

MB use to publish monthly, the total number of members and number of members by state. They stopped that some years back.

I would again ask why ?
Numbers don't lie, but you can lie by hiding numbers. This happens all the time in the business world.

Don't want this to start a bashing, my point was the diminishing number of traditional shooters and their numbers lead some credence to it..

Agree, I don't want to bash anyone, but how you interpret the numbers says a lot (business marketing 101) and the numbers appear to have been portrayed in a way that is somewhat deceiving.

Regardless, It goes back to what I was originally trying argue, in that NMLRA numbers don't accurately reflect the popularity or decline of muzzle loading as a sport.

 

[FishDFly]

I might miss my guess, but I'll bet you're a whitetail hunter and not a open country hunter, hunting a depleted mule deer population from overhunting. You probably have access to private ground, and are not in a state where 70% of the state is public lands overrun by hunters. In Northern Utah hunting success for deer is around 16% with most of those being spikes.

How do they allocate the number of hunters who receive tags from the drawing? Is it so many from in state and so many from out of state or what is the ratio?

Has to be frustrating to go year after year wondering if you get to hunt each year.

 

[Carbon 6]

I do feel the days of the NMLRA are numbered.

Why?
I mean, you can say that about any organization, but can you put an actual number to it?
Gut feelings don't go far in the board room.

 

[FishDFly]

"Regardless, It goes back to what I was originally trying argue, in that NMLRA numbers don't accurately reflect the popularity or decline of muzzle loading as a sport"

Agree and dis-agree, but, that is a mute point, Sport is declining.

We need to appreciate what we have now while it is here.

 

[Carbon 6]

How do they allocate the number of hunters who receive tags from the drawing? Is it so many from in state and so many from out of state or what is the ratio?

Has to be frustrating to go year after year wondering if you get to hunt each year.

I wonder if they would be better served by increasing the number of tags, but only having a season every other year or so. Now those would be some interesting numbers to crunch.

 

[Carbon 6]

Agree and dis-agree, but, that is a mute point, Sport is declining.

I disagree, because you have no evidence to support that the sport is in decline and the evidence you did provide was heavily skewed.

 

[Carbon 6]

We need to appreciate what we have now while it is here.

That goes without saying.

 

[FishDFly]

I disagree, because you have no evidence to support that the sport is in decline and the evidence you did provide was heavily skewed.

Where is T/C? Why have several company's stopped making traditional style rifles? Why have so many muzzle loading stores closed? Why have so many muzzle loading clubs folded? Many clubs now do not let MLs' be shot on their ranges. Very few indoor ranges will let them be shot. If it was not for the internet, most folks could not get supplies. In a a country this large, there are basically 2 magazines who cater to ML shooters.

Maybe you are right, I just don't see any growth.

 

[Festus]

Where is T/C? Why have several company's stopped making traditional style rifles? Why have so many muzzle loading stores closed? Why have so many muzzle loading clubs folded? Many clubs now do not let MLs' be shot on their ranges. Very few indoor ranges will let them be shot. If it was not for the internet, most folks could not get supplies. In a a country this large, there are basically 2 magazines who cater to ML shooters.

Maybe you are right, I just don't see any growth.

Seems that flintlocks have become more popular and I can't help but think Pennsylvania's flintlock season itself has driven that market. If every state went to traditional we would see more people shooting flintlocks.

 

[Carbon 6]

Where is T/C?

Hopefully in a better place now. I miss them, but it was a love-hate relationship.

Why have several company's stopped making traditional style rifles?

Several ? T/C is the only one that come to mind, you'll have to help me on that one.
How many new companies have sprung up?

Why have so many muzzle loading clubs folded?

I can only speak for my own club. The age gap became too great and too many members died.

Many clubs now do not let MLs' be shot on their ranges.

Ranges tend to specialize in my area, but there is no problem finding a place to shoot.

Very few indoor ranges will let them be shot

That's completely understandable. I don't like indoor ranges, The lead, gas and chemical exposure is too high.

In a a country this large, there are basically 2 magazines who cater to ML shooters.

How many have there been in the last 50 years ?

If it was not for the internet, most folks could not get supplies.

Supplies were darn tough to get when I started, much easier now. I'm putting that one in the plus column.

 

[Carbon 6]

Seems that flintlocks have become more popular

I agree, I'm putting that in the plus column too.

 

[Carbon 6]

If every state went to traditional we would see more people shooting flintlocks.

I agree 1 million% but it need to proceed the regular gun deer season. Personally I think flintlock and Bow should run together.

correction:
"Traditional only flintlock", and I wouldn't be opposed to smoothbore only.

 

[Billy Boy]

We have always been nerds on the edge.
And it’s not just us. People want to find an easier or better way of doing things.
Have you ever sailed a wood boat with a mast stepped on and a luger sail? It’s slow and lubberly on turns compared to modern sail boats of the same size... but what fun
There are boys that restore classic cars to mint condition, or get old jolopies running saving all the patina. But the car magizines and shows are full of the latest computer chip on wheels.
Back packing is all about ounces and micro fibers today. Yes there are bushcrafters but folks would rather pay for the des/arit 3000 world class back pack with built in solar charger and waste vaporizer at 1.72 kilos.
We’re a nerd class. I’m ok with that.

Traditional archery, which is another love of mine, is in the same boat as traditional muzzleloading. Stick and recurve bows are seen as quaint, outdated curiosities.

 

[IROCZ]

It used to be called primitive weapons season...

Ask the Pennsylvania muzzleloader hunters how they feel about that.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Very interesting how different areas work the license and harvest.
In Texas - I buy an annual license - a super combo - that costs me 35.00. (Special old fart retired rate)
If I buy a public land permit - add another 48 bucks.
That license gets me tags for 5 whitetail, 2 mule deer, 4 turkey, one large red drum, 15 dove per day in season, all other game birds that are not migratory or Federally restricted, all native fish, all other game in the state with harvest numbers determined by the county and yearly population.
I hunt in any part of the state I want to hunt in including a couple of million acres of private land that has been registered and lease fees paid for by the State. With number of hunters declined the last few years, there are twice as many deer in the state than any other state in the country.
You see them on almost every road that gets traveled at night by motor vehicle. Estimates are as many as 5,000 deer killed and 17 people each year. There is no shortage of game here.
There does seem to be a severe shortage of black powder hunters though.

 

[Irishmusket]

If you go back to early 70s Mass introduced a primitive firearms deer hunting season which required that a pre 1865 design and be smooth bore..Thats because some people were making or were buying breech plugs for their shot gun which made them a muzzle loader that used modern shot gun primers and several people were arrested for using regular shot gun shells with slugs cheating H&R in 1971 introduced the Huntsman model 156 a 12 gauge smooth bore a muzzle loading version of their topper shotgun It could not shoot12 gauge shells because the breech was altered to accept the breech plug they used no 11 caps or change the nipple and use musket caps Though H&R was a Massachusetts company they were illegal for use durring the primitive season but legal during the regular season.Why the were not considered pre 1865 .The laws were changed in the late 70s to allow muzzle loading rifles as long as they used a pre1865 ignition no 11 musket caps flint or match break open were not legal in Mass till after 2004 with that 209 ignition The reason was declining numbers of hunters .It has workers to a large degree.Modern muzzle loaders they little in common with traditional or real muzzle loaders they use can but rarely use real gunpowder Triple7 or pyrodex and many others including smokeless powder and some even use large rifle primmers. And what is a new thing now is loading the inline with a charged center fire plastic cartridge from the breech but muzzle loading bullet THIS NOT A MUZZLE LOADER this some thing in between.Whats going to happen is some thing is not done about this nonsense we will find our traditional guns regulated like AR15 s

 

[TFoley]

IBTL.

Seems to me that you are all missing the point of being a traditionalist. Heck, it all began around 1600-something. Soooooooooo, forget your futuristic new-fangled flintlocks and all that fancy modern stuff. Get into the hills like the Jamestown Boys did back then - the REAL trads - with their twelve apostles and matchlocks, and get blowing on that slow-match!!

 

[StevePD]

There needs to be a balance in technology in keeping it a recreational sport that has some challenges.
I prefer and hunt with sidelocks, the main game changer with muzzleloader seasons or hunters has been the scope, same goes for bowhunting, release's.Keep the scopes off the muzzleloaders and the releases out of bowhunting and it would make it more of challenge put the hunt /pursuit back in to these seasons . Those are the biggest changes that could be done, without being "extreme" with way.
.At least thats my opinion. Hope I didn't stray to far off the topic.

 

[User_Dan]

I might miss my guess, but I'll bet you're a whitetail hunter and not a open country hunter, hunting a depleted mule deer population from overhunting. You probably have access to private ground, and are not in a state where 70% of the state is public lands overrun by hunters. In Northern Utah hunting success for deer is around 16% with most of those being spikes.

Couldn't be more wrong. Haven't had the slightest desire or reason to ever line up an animal in my sights. I shoot steel plates, lots of them with unmentionables and a 50cal prb

I am actually one of the new guys into muzzleloading. Under 40, and seeing a bunch of old guys argue about a sport that is supposed to be fun. It's obvious why it isn't growing much, the community at large isn't welcoming to new comers.

I Assembled a Traditions kit, and was proud at learning to use a flintlock. I "learned" that it's a crap gun, not real, not traditional, not any other slander that i have read here. no wonder the sport is struggling to grow, not very inclusive.

Off my soap box now.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Understand that results may vary from State to State. It sounds crazy but where I live in N.J. Sussex My Neighborhood is overrun with herds of Deer with Mature bachelor bucks thrown in. I easily took two spikes and a doe so far. I dont want to even get into the number of Dead on the sides of the road. Jersey has a pretty long season...Bow Sep to Jan. end. 6 day firearm, and maybe a two weeks of days strung out here and there for Muzzy. And additional permit days for all types thrown in. Got to leave and im going to miss it. Guess I have to get used to a new program where im going.
Just my 2cnts