Guess I should ask Why do more rules and seasons need to be applied? Shouldn't hunters open their arms to all new hunters, isn't that how the sport grows? Would shooting less animals each year Allow more to grow making the sport better each year?
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traditionalist - Are we Loosing the Battle
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No, That's just your perception based on your lack of experiences. Stick around take the time to learn and understand what the old boys are arguing about. You'll be glad you did. In many ways it's like the movie "Grumpy Old Men". Have you seen that movie.
It's a good life lesson.
Here's a sample.
I started off with traditional sidelock rifles back in the 70's. Patched round ball and such. Got caught up in the inline style for a number of years. 2 years ago I got rid of the inlines and am back to traditional. Love the old ways.
Treestalker
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I'd like to build a medieval style crossbow with a steel prod (bow) but I doubt if I would hunt with it.
Youngsters these days are too busy punching on their phones to be interested in anything else!!
To add to this discussion. Whether you are a fan of the movie or not, I think The Revenant brought some people over to the traditional side. This day in age younger people need to see it in action or maybe play a game or something. If you watch any of the sportsman channels you are hard pressed to find any traditional stuff. I am a NMLRA member but to be honest I don't see a lot that they do besides run shoots in friendship and send out a magazine. I'm sure they do more than I see. Maybe they could produce a show for public to help drum up interest. Just a thought.
Quite frankly, I'd be surprised (stunned) if any indoor range allowed muzzleloaders. Imagine the smoke problems if even 1/4 of the shooters on the line shot a black powder weapon... T/C is still making muzzleloaders. Margins/sales are apparently better with the inline stuff.
Steveoko922
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I've brought my traditional hunting to western washington. Harvested a nice blacktail in the thick rainforest. It doesn't snow here in December, just down pour. Ran into a guy hunting with a nice .54 Lancaster rifle. We both gawked at eachothers kit.
Steveoko922
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Greg Blackburn
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I have long wanted my state to set a "flintlock only" season.
M-L in general, and traditional m-l in particular, is a slowly dying sport.
Compared to the bow hunting industry, which is primarily a mechanical one with compound bows and crossbows, as opposed to traditional/recurve bows; muzzleloading has a insignificant/almost non-existent lobbying force to put forth its views.
Most of us are, deep down inside (where we don't like to talk about at parties!), whether we admit to it, or not; ruggedly individualistic. We are cheapskates that complain about the cost of parts constantly. We don't join in easily. We don't have large companies contributing monies to trade groups/lobbyists. Our industry is scattered far, and wide over most of the United States. For the most part it is small businesses, with sole owners, or a few employees, fulfilling niches.
The 4 largest companies, if I am correct, are Pedersoli, CVA, Thompson/Center, and Knight.
We expect Old World craftsmanship, at bargin basement prices.
The same guy that will spend $75,000.00 for the latest, decked out pick-up truck, $25,000.00 for a decked out bass boat, and another $15,000.00 for a decked out ATV, complains like the devil if his latest, greatest, as advertised in the hunting/fishing magazines, all-plastic, 209 primer ignition, kill-the-deer-from-the-next-county, .50 caliber inline muzzleloader rifle costs more than $299.99!!!!!! RETAIL!! WITH A SCOPE!!!!
HOW can you explain to that buyer (and that is MOST of the population that can AFFORD to enter the traditional m-l market)----- that the CVA flintlock sitting for sale in the pawn shop, gun shop, online-----at a price comparable to what he paid for that Super-Duper inline-----
Which, by the way, USUALLY WORKS LIKE IT IS SUPPOSED TO. Some need to be tinkered with, and modded a little. But, most shoot reasonably well right out of the box.
That CVA flintlock, however,-------
1. has a STUNNINGLY good barrel/rifling---
2. a decent-to-awful breech plug (depends on luck-of-the-draw)----
3. a fairly decent trigger (especially if its doubleset)-----
4. so-so sights (can be easily changed, usually)-----
5. a kinda clumsy-looking stock, that might, or might not fit well (depending on the shooter's body shape-----
6. and a flintlock that only his WORST ENEMY would wish on him. A lock that has a 1-in-20 chance (best scenario?) of EVER functioning the way the purchaser expects it to. Because the manufacturer has made it with such poor geometry, that the BEST flintlock tuners in the United States won't EVEN ATTEMPT TO WORK ON ONE. Because they all once did, back when they were young, and once was enough. Poor geometry, poor steel, poor workmanship, poor heat treatment of the frizzen (CRITICAL PART).
7. NOT EVEN MADE IN THE USA----
8. availability of spare parts, non-existent--
9. if by fate you do get one that works the way its supposed to, it will probably EAT FLINTS (that bad geometry thing)----
10. the chance of getting a properly assembled, properly heat-treated, as properly functioning of a flintlock from any low-end European m-l manufacturer/importer; is probably somewhere between 1-200 & 1-100
The best flintlocks from Europe come from Pedersoli. Their run-of-the-mill, medium-priced, civilian locks are better than most other European manufacturers; but they still suffer from bad geometry. Pedersoli's military flintlocks are fairly close copies of the originals, and most of them function pretty well. Although, ALL Pedersoli flintlocks will benefit from a good tuning ($200.00). Only the Mortimer civilian flintlock has proper geometry.
A quick look at the Pedersoli price list, and it is immediately apparent that serious money is going to be involved in starting out with a flintlock in traditional m-l.
If Billy Joe Bob/Sue Anne Betsy wants to get started in traditional percussion m-l, than a used T/C, CVA, Pedersoli, DGW, can usually be found for less than $500.00. If you are prepared to look, and wait.
And therein lies the CRUX OF THE PROBLEM HERE IN 2021. There is nothing comparable to the Thompson/Center sidelock rifles of yesteryear in terms of quality of manufacturing, and features. There is low-cost junk, medium-priced working guns, higher-priced military guns, even higher-priced semi-custom guns from builders, and full-priced custom guns.
This is why traditional muzzleloading is dying, IMO.
THERE IS NOTHING COMPARABLE IN QUALITY TO THE T/C OF YESTERDAY TO BRIDGE THE GAP BETWEEN THE INEXPENSIVE 209 PRIMER INLINE, AND THE MORE EXPENSIVE PERCUSSION & FLINTLOCK LONGRIFLES OF THE TRADITIONALIST.
If you REALLY WANT to attract the inline crowd to flintlocks (and THAT IS THE IMAGE THAT MOST PEOPLE CARRY IN THEIR MIND WHEN THEY THINK M-L)(think Daniel Boone); then a well-functioning rifle that DOES NOT START AT $1,200.00 has to be readily available.
Compared to the bow hunting industry, which is primarily a mechanical one with compound bows and crossbows, as opposed to traditional/recurve bows; muzzleloading has a insignificant/almost non-existent lobbying force to put forth its views.
Most of us are, deep down inside (where we don't like to talk about at parties!), whether we admit to it, or not; ruggedly individualistic. We are cheapskates that complain about the cost of parts constantly. We don't join in easily. We don't have large companies contributing monies to trade groups/lobbyists. Our industry is scattered far, and wide over most of the United States. For the most part it is small businesses, with sole owners, or a few employees, fulfilling niches.
The 4 largest companies, if I am correct, are Pedersoli, CVA, Thompson/Center, and Knight.
We expect Old World craftsmanship, at bargin basement prices.
The same guy that will spend $75,000.00 for the latest, decked out pick-up truck, $25,000.00 for a decked out bass boat, and another $15,000.00 for a decked out ATV, complains like the devil if his latest, greatest, as advertised in the hunting/fishing magazines, all-plastic, 209 primer ignition, kill-the-deer-from-the-next-county, .50 caliber inline muzzleloader rifle costs more than $299.99!!!!!! RETAIL!! WITH A SCOPE!!!!
HOW can you explain to that buyer (and that is MOST of the population that can AFFORD to enter the traditional m-l market)----- that the CVA flintlock sitting for sale in the pawn shop, gun shop, online-----at a price comparable to what he paid for that Super-Duper inline-----
Which, by the way, USUALLY WORKS LIKE IT IS SUPPOSED TO. Some need to be tinkered with, and modded a little. But, most shoot reasonably well right out of the box.
That CVA flintlock, however,-------
1. has a STUNNINGLY good barrel/rifling---
2. a decent-to-awful breech plug (depends on luck-of-the-draw)----
3. a fairly decent trigger (especially if its doubleset)-----
4. so-so sights (can be easily changed, usually)-----
5. a kinda clumsy-looking stock, that might, or might not fit well (depending on the shooter's body shape-----
6. and a flintlock that only his WORST ENEMY would wish on him. A lock that has a 1-in-20 chance (best scenario?) of EVER functioning the way the purchaser expects it to. Because the manufacturer has made it with such poor geometry, that the BEST flintlock tuners in the United States won't EVEN ATTEMPT TO WORK ON ONE. Because they all once did, back when they were young, and once was enough. Poor geometry, poor steel, poor workmanship, poor heat treatment of the frizzen (CRITICAL PART).
7. NOT EVEN MADE IN THE USA----
8. availability of spare parts, non-existent--
9. if by fate you do get one that works the way its supposed to, it will probably EAT FLINTS (that bad geometry thing)----
10. the chance of getting a properly assembled, properly heat-treated, as properly functioning of a flintlock from any low-end European m-l manufacturer/importer; is probably somewhere between 1-200 & 1-100
The best flintlocks from Europe come from Pedersoli. Their run-of-the-mill, medium-priced, civilian locks are better than most other European manufacturers; but they still suffer from bad geometry. Pedersoli's military flintlocks are fairly close copies of the originals, and most of them function pretty well. Although, ALL Pedersoli flintlocks will benefit from a good tuning ($200.00). Only the Mortimer civilian flintlock has proper geometry.
A quick look at the Pedersoli price list, and it is immediately apparent that serious money is going to be involved in starting out with a flintlock in traditional m-l.
If Billy Joe Bob/Sue Anne Betsy wants to get started in traditional percussion m-l, than a used T/C, CVA, Pedersoli, DGW, can usually be found for less than $500.00. If you are prepared to look, and wait.
And therein lies the CRUX OF THE PROBLEM HERE IN 2021. There is nothing comparable to the Thompson/Center sidelock rifles of yesteryear in terms of quality of manufacturing, and features. There is low-cost junk, medium-priced working guns, higher-priced military guns, even higher-priced semi-custom guns from builders, and full-priced custom guns.
This is why traditional muzzleloading is dying, IMO.
THERE IS NOTHING COMPARABLE IN QUALITY TO THE T/C OF YESTERDAY TO BRIDGE THE GAP BETWEEN THE INEXPENSIVE 209 PRIMER INLINE, AND THE MORE EXPENSIVE PERCUSSION & FLINTLOCK LONGRIFLES OF THE TRADITIONALIST.
If you REALLY WANT to attract the inline crowd to flintlocks (and THAT IS THE IMAGE THAT MOST PEOPLE CARRY IN THEIR MIND WHEN THEY THINK M-L)(think Daniel Boone); then a well-functioning rifle that DOES NOT START AT $1,200.00 has to be readily available.
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I’ve always done my own thing.. not worrying so much about what’s going on with our hobby... as it really doesn’t change too terribly much. We don’t have the “latest” and “ greatest” gadgets to buy... nor commercials Celebrating the latest deer killing instruments. That being said, as long as I can get powder, caps, flints and lead... then im good to go. I don’t foresee this changing any time soon.
I grew up in PA and return each year for both muzzleloader seasons. I love hunting my home state with the flintlock.
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i agree with ghang green on the pa early buck and doe season and i sent a note this year to the pa game comm. they did comment that they wouild bring it to the table . we will see. but no mater where you live if you want change you have to let it be known
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sorry. spell check got me . gang green
To me inline muzzleloader's are just one part short of being a modern rifle. Why not use a black powder cartridge single shot rifle. When I think of a muzzleloader I think of a flintlock or percussion rifle you use loose powder in, iron sights, no scopes or fiberoptic. Oh one can use the other but where is the challenge.
I can recall when Jack O'Connor & Warren Page were leading the charge for reasonably priced, light-weight, scoped, bolt-action, factory rifles that would mimic the custom rifles that were in all the magazines. The ones made off of Springfield & Mauser actions. One loved the 30-06, and the other the .270 Winchester. Neither man advocated taking a shot THAT WAS A SINGLE INCH LONGER THAN THE CONDITIONS OF THE HUNT DICTATED. Stalking to get close, regardless of the terrain, was mandatory. I simply cannot recall ever reading that Mr. O'Connor took a shot over 300 yards. 250 yards was considered long range, only to be taken if absolutely necessary.
Fast forward to the past 15 years, and what reigns in the shooting/hunting rifle world? Heavy rifles that have steadily creeped up in weight until the average scoped rifle's weight is darn close to 9-10 pounds. Emphasis is on barrels, actions, stocks, bedding, scopes, ballistics calculators, etc. that will allow a BELOW AVERAGE shooter to consistently reach out past 300 meters with 2 M.O.A., or better accuracy, right-out-of-the-shop.
EVERYONE WANTS TO SHOOT LIKE A SNIPER. And kill things at stupidly long distances.
The same push from the advertising execs has all the major inline manufacturers stumbling over themselves to bring to market the next greatest long range muzzleloading rifle. There are already guns shooting BH209 & smokeless that will consistently shoot M.O.A. out past 800 yards.
Put a now discontinued Green Mountain Long Range Hunter, .45, or. 50 caliber barrel, into an old Thompson/Center Hawken, or Renegade stock with doubleset triggers. Put on a Lyman globe front sight with Lee Shaver inserts. Add a mid-range Soule tang sight with an adjustable Hadley disc in the rear. With the right bullet moulds, lube, wads, and powder charges that old rifle will reach right out to 1000 plus meters with M.O.A. accuracy. For a lot less money than a new inline. It's just too bad that Green Mountain stopped making the LRH drop-in barrels for the T/C's. They were an incredible bargain.
If one just wants to hunt with bullets, stick a Lyman 57SML peep rear sight on that T/C with the Long Range Hunter barrel, and it will outshoot most modern guns.
It is kinda hard to compete against the lure of the heavy, long-distance muzzleloading rifles being advocated by the big manufacturers today. Until shooters are willing to SLOW WAY DOWN, and except the limitations of the percussion/flintlock sidelock rifles, things are not going to get much better for the traditional m-l hunter.
Fast forward to the past 15 years, and what reigns in the shooting/hunting rifle world? Heavy rifles that have steadily creeped up in weight until the average scoped rifle's weight is darn close to 9-10 pounds. Emphasis is on barrels, actions, stocks, bedding, scopes, ballistics calculators, etc. that will allow a BELOW AVERAGE shooter to consistently reach out past 300 meters with 2 M.O.A., or better accuracy, right-out-of-the-shop.
EVERYONE WANTS TO SHOOT LIKE A SNIPER. And kill things at stupidly long distances.
The same push from the advertising execs has all the major inline manufacturers stumbling over themselves to bring to market the next greatest long range muzzleloading rifle. There are already guns shooting BH209 & smokeless that will consistently shoot M.O.A. out past 800 yards.
Put a now discontinued Green Mountain Long Range Hunter, .45, or. 50 caliber barrel, into an old Thompson/Center Hawken, or Renegade stock with doubleset triggers. Put on a Lyman globe front sight with Lee Shaver inserts. Add a mid-range Soule tang sight with an adjustable Hadley disc in the rear. With the right bullet moulds, lube, wads, and powder charges that old rifle will reach right out to 1000 plus meters with M.O.A. accuracy. For a lot less money than a new inline. It's just too bad that Green Mountain stopped making the LRH drop-in barrels for the T/C's. They were an incredible bargain.
If one just wants to hunt with bullets, stick a Lyman 57SML peep rear sight on that T/C with the Long Range Hunter barrel, and it will outshoot most modern guns.
It is kinda hard to compete against the lure of the heavy, long-distance muzzleloading rifles being advocated by the big manufacturers today. Until shooters are willing to SLOW WAY DOWN, and except the limitations of the percussion/flintlock sidelock rifles, things are not going to get much better for the traditional m-l hunter.
Before the plague, a group of us were working to introduce kids to muzzleloading by becoming certified instructors and working with youth orgs to give proper instruction from an instructor cadre that are also muzzleloading enthusiasts and competitors. When this plague thing subsides, we’re wanting to kick start it again with help from the NMLRA and others.
Our outlook is this, the problem has been a long time in coming and it will take a long view approach to solve it. Today’s kid who is given a great experience in muzzleloading now will become a future consumer of goods and services. If we turn a fraction of a percent on to our passion in muzzleloading, that can reignite the market. At the very least, those who don’t get involved will be favorably disposed to muzzleloading. The last summer when we were able to run our instruction project, we worked with over 300 kids in a total of 7 days. I personally was able to work directly with nearly 80.
So the thing we need to understand is this- if we sit around and woe is me, nothing will change. If we act in the way I see many doing arguing about the best lube, lead, flint v percussion, sights, etc, that will turn the vast majority off and paints us as iconoclastic loonys. I’ve said it before and here it comes again, you want change, be the agent of change for the betterment of our hobby. Whenever you can, be a positive ambassador.
Our outlook is this, the problem has been a long time in coming and it will take a long view approach to solve it. Today’s kid who is given a great experience in muzzleloading now will become a future consumer of goods and services. If we turn a fraction of a percent on to our passion in muzzleloading, that can reignite the market. At the very least, those who don’t get involved will be favorably disposed to muzzleloading. The last summer when we were able to run our instruction project, we worked with over 300 kids in a total of 7 days. I personally was able to work directly with nearly 80.
So the thing we need to understand is this- if we sit around and woe is me, nothing will change. If we act in the way I see many doing arguing about the best lube, lead, flint v percussion, sights, etc, that will turn the vast majority off and paints us as iconoclastic loonys. I’ve said it before and here it comes again, you want change, be the agent of change for the betterment of our hobby. Whenever you can, be a positive ambassador.
Don H
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The first time I ever shot a muzzleloader was at Philmont Scout Ranch in 1974. When I got home from that trip I bought a kit from Dixie Gunworks and started a lifelong hobby. I went back to Philmont in 2012 as a leader and the muzzleloader program was still a big hit with the boys. For most of the boys in our group it was the first time shooting black powder.
Today BSA encourages the use of muzzleloaders through its Rifle Shooting Merit Badge. If someone wanted to encourage traditional muzzleloading maybe supporting your local camp, if they have a ML program, would be a good way.
Note that I have never seen an inline at a scout camp, all sidelock percussions.
Here's the requirements for the Rifle Shooting Merit Badge:
Option C—Muzzleloading Rifle Shooting
(a) Give a brief history of the development of muzzleloading rifles.
(b) Identify principal parts of percussion rifles and discuss how they function.
(c) Demonstrate and discuss the safe handling of muzzleloading rifles.
(d) Identify the various grades of black powder and black powder substitutes and explain their proper use.
(e) Discuss proper safety procedures pertaining to black powder use and storage.
(f) Discusspropercomponentsofaload.
(g) Identify proper procedures and accessories used for loading a muzzleloading rifle.
(h) Demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and attitude necessary to safely shoot a muzzleloading rifle on a range, including range procedures. Explain what a misfire, hangfire, and squib fire are, and explain the procedures to follow in response to each.
(i) Shoot a target with a muzzleloading rifle using the five fundamentals of firing a shot.
205
(j) Identify the materials needed to clean a muzzleloading rifle safely. Using these materials, demonstrate how to clean a muzzleloading rifle safely.
(k) Identify the causes of a muzzleloading rifle’s failure to fire and explain or demonstrate proper correction procedures.
(l) Discuss what points you would consider in selecting a muzzleloading rifle.
(m) Using a muzzleloading rifle of .45 or .50 caliber and shooting from a benchrest or supported prone position, fire three groups (three shots per group) at 50 feet that can be covered by the base of a standard-size soft drink can.
(n) Center the group on the target and fire three groups (five shots per group). According to the target used, each shot in the group must meet the following minimum score: (1) at 25 yards using NRA A-23 or NMLRA 50-yard tar- gets—7; (2) at 50 yards using NRA A-25 or NMLRA 100-yard targets—7.
Today BSA encourages the use of muzzleloaders through its Rifle Shooting Merit Badge. If someone wanted to encourage traditional muzzleloading maybe supporting your local camp, if they have a ML program, would be a good way.
Note that I have never seen an inline at a scout camp, all sidelock percussions.
Here's the requirements for the Rifle Shooting Merit Badge:
Option C—Muzzleloading Rifle Shooting
(a) Give a brief history of the development of muzzleloading rifles.
(b) Identify principal parts of percussion rifles and discuss how they function.
(c) Demonstrate and discuss the safe handling of muzzleloading rifles.
(d) Identify the various grades of black powder and black powder substitutes and explain their proper use.
(e) Discuss proper safety procedures pertaining to black powder use and storage.
(f) Discusspropercomponentsofaload.
(g) Identify proper procedures and accessories used for loading a muzzleloading rifle.
(h) Demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and attitude necessary to safely shoot a muzzleloading rifle on a range, including range procedures. Explain what a misfire, hangfire, and squib fire are, and explain the procedures to follow in response to each.
(i) Shoot a target with a muzzleloading rifle using the five fundamentals of firing a shot.
205
(j) Identify the materials needed to clean a muzzleloading rifle safely. Using these materials, demonstrate how to clean a muzzleloading rifle safely.
(k) Identify the causes of a muzzleloading rifle’s failure to fire and explain or demonstrate proper correction procedures.
(l) Discuss what points you would consider in selecting a muzzleloading rifle.
(m) Using a muzzleloading rifle of .45 or .50 caliber and shooting from a benchrest or supported prone position, fire three groups (three shots per group) at 50 feet that can be covered by the base of a standard-size soft drink can.
(n) Center the group on the target and fire three groups (five shots per group). According to the target used, each shot in the group must meet the following minimum score: (1) at 25 yards using NRA A-23 or NMLRA 50-yard tar- gets—7; (2) at 50 yards using NRA A-25 or NMLRA 100-yard targets—7.
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Guys everyone talks about the decline in our sport, but still when you talk to different Builders.... most can’t keep up with the demand for their goods.
So somebody’s buying traditional style guns still....
Look how many Kiblers have sold over the past few years...
I would like to know the total number that Jim has sold, I sure it’s a lot more than we’ve seen posted on this Forum....
However I do feel that cost of side locks and their quality when compared too the unmentionable thing with a scope is a BIG factor .... especially in our younger generations while they’re still raising a Family, working and making mortgage & car payments.
I’ve been a member of this Forum for over 10 years now , and during that time I have seen several of the younger generation come too this board for help.....
Especially in the last year it seems ....
So somebody’s buying traditional style guns still....
Look how many Kiblers have sold over the past few years...
I would like to know the total number that Jim has sold, I sure it’s a lot more than we’ve seen posted on this Forum....
However I do feel that cost of side locks and their quality when compared too the unmentionable thing with a scope is a BIG factor .... especially in our younger generations while they’re still raising a Family, working and making mortgage & car payments.
I’ve been a member of this Forum for over 10 years now , and during that time I have seen several of the younger generation come too this board for help.....
Especially in the last year it seems ....
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