• Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Traditions Hawken 50 cal

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

George Hoskins

36 Cal.
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
71
Reaction score
0
Anyone out there have the same misfortune as I do and own one of these flintlocks. I am having serious accuracy inconsistencies and woul like to pick your brains. Please PT me for details.
 
Accuracy problems are usually pretty generic. Tell us what the gun is doing and some of us may be able to help, whether we own a Traditions, or CVA, or some prior form of the gun. Give us an idea of the model you have, But mostly, tell us what its doing, or not doing. Thanks.
 
I had a good hour tuning the trigger so the set and sear are tripping correct. i have shot 25 rounds in mine so i have got a long ways to pass the break in phase. i have only been ably to fire from the shoulder and it seem all right, but it has got a ways before i will see any thing out of it. the only thing i have against the gun is that the ramrod sucks and only serves to hold the barrel on the stock and for decoration. i made a range rod instead.
 
My lock broke after I put 50 rounds through it. Replaced it with an L&R lock. Accuracy wise, I'm pretty happy with it. I use 70gr of FFg behind a .490 ball with .018 pillow tick lubed with bore butter and I get 3in groups at 100 yds.
 
a friend has one in flint, but mine is a caplock. Both are accurate. The only difference is in the lock, not the barrel. The accuracy can be anything: load not developed yet, barrel not shot in, or it could be as simple as you flinching. Give us more info and someone will be able to give you better suggestions.
 
I have one. Once I found what load it liked the accuracy has been fine. However, after all that sighting in I swapped the barrel for a Green Mountain 54 cal / 28 guage smoothbore barrel. I had planned to switch back and forth between them, but I like the smoothbore enough that I doubt I'll ever put the rifled barrel back on. The smoothbore's accuracy with prb is fine for my hunting, maybe 4 inch groups at 50 yards, and I don't hunt past that anyway.
 
Well gentleman thanks to all of you for your responses. I had planned to do this via PT so I wouldn't bug people by repeating a bunch of problems that I'm sure everyone has heard before, but being the helpful bunch you are you asked for it :wink: so here goes. The gun is a Hawken Traditions 50 cal Flinter. I like the gun a lot but it doesn't seem to like me if you know what I mean. I have about 500+ rounds thru her now and while I'm no Davy Crockett I can usually hold my own, having done some shooting in the military etc.I am not flinching ( I don't think) and to make sure I have done most of my work off a bench rest. The gun doesn't seem to fire with consistent accuracy (or inaccuracy for that matter). I have done numerous rounds at 25yds and can have 3 balls touch in the center of a 3 in bull. The problem comes when I try to lenghten it out to 50yds. The gun seems to fire consistently high even with the rear sight all the way down. Sun day past we were at the range and the gun was erratic (off the rest) with some shots going left of target and some right at 50yds. Here are some of the things I have done to no avail. I use Wonder Lube patches only and do not swab between shots. The book with the gun recommends .49 balls. I started with that with 50 grains and .10 thou patches. I increased the patch from .10 to .15 to .18 to.20 where I am now. I also increased the ball from .49 to .495 to no avail. I have tried powder loads in 5 grain increments from 40 to 60 grains. Just after I got the gun I bored the touch hole to 5/64 and rarely have a misfire with that. Last month at a club shoot one of the experienced shooters said it looked like I was getting a lot of blowback. I cruised the forum doing some reading I believe Mr. Brooks said he considers a 5/64 touch hole worn out, so I installed a new 1/16 liner. All that seemed to accomplish was make the gun a little more prone to misfire altho it was quite humid on Sun. The lock on this gun is very fast and smooth compared to others I have seen. The gun has been fired by some of the "old pros " in the club with the same problems I have. I have one guy tell me the barrell acts like it's been "shot out" even tho it was a new gun. As you can tell I'm pretty much at my wits end and about ready to give up on the bugger. Any suggestions would be MOST appreciated and assidously applied. Thanks for your time and assistance. Cheers
 
You seem to have enough rounds down range to have smoothed all of the sharp edges out of the barrel but shot out I dont think so. First thing I would do is use the .490 ball and use the highest patch thickness you do not have to pound the ball sown with. Second start at 50 grains of powder shoot five rounds and clean after each shot. Increase in five grains incraments shoot 5 rounds cleaning after each shot, then keep shooting until you find a good load. Dont go past 100 grains. Dont feel like you have to find that perfect load real fast, I shot my T/C hawkins for a year before I found a load it liked, and it was a.490 round ball with a 10 thousands patch with 70 grains of powder. The smaller size patch was the key and that went against everything every one at my club told me. After you have done the above and it doesnt work then change patch size sooner of later the rifle will give you the perfect load.
 
Get in the bore with brake cleaner, or some other aggressive solvent and remove any residual factory preservative.

You may have to use a bronze brush to scrub it out.If you do need a bronze brush, twist the rod to the right to remove it from the breech and pull the brush all the way out of the muzzle. Twisting the rod/brush prevents the bristles from jamming into the bore at the breech, which in turn makes the brush easier to get back out. It also prevents any potential damage to the bore.

Secondly, get rid of that yellow chapstick and get a good patch lube. Plain old spit is probably the cheapest and most effective lube available, but windex, or any soap and water mix will work as well.

Lots of folks like Stumpies moose snot, and it works ok, but I don't like MOS either, so IMHO, there are better patch lubes out there.

Thirdly, cone the exterior of your touch hole to the bottom of the screw slot. If that doesn't solve your ignition problem, enlarge the touch hole to .067 with a # 51 drill bit. Shoot it long enough to give it a good test, and then enlarge to .070 with a # 50 drillbit if the # 51 doesn't improve reliability.

IMHO, if coning the exterior of the liner to the bottom of the screw slot and enlarging the TH with a # 51 drillbit doesn't improve the reliability of ignition, there is probably something else wrong there.

IMHO, removing any latent bore preservative, not to mention built up yellow chapstick, and changing patch lubes will probably get that gun shooting groups pretty quickly.

good luck,
J.D.
 
I'll give you my honest opinion in public and let the pros pick it apart. I am no whiz kid with this stuff but I am gaining experience on a steep curve and so far this is what I have come up with.



I have done numerous rounds at 25yds and can have 3 balls touch in the center of a 3 in bull.
I personally feel that load developement at 25 yds is a waste of time, it is fine for checking windage and elevation but not for group testing, also a minium of 5 shots to a shot string is requried to get an accurate representation of a particular group

The gun seems to fire consistently high even with the rear sight all the way down.
I am really in no position to question your bench tecnique but this would seem to be the logical problem here, as well as consistent sight picture.
The following group was fired @ 50 yds off the bench with poor posture.
IMG_0658.jpg


Not sure of the "quality" of your range session but I prefer to be alone while working on a load, I also only change one variable per session as this simplifies the amount of data to process.

With my limited experience with the flintlock I have found them to be very sensitive to the components that make up the load just like a centerfire rifle, patching material as well as thickness and the lube, ball diameter, and consistency in the loading proceedure. It takes me the better part of the day to fire a 25 shot range session.

The following set of pictures are from the same session as the pic above but my posture was adjusted for comfort. The last group measures 1 1/8" center to center and a moose juice type lube instead of spit.
IMG_0660.jpg

IMG_0662.jpg

IMG_0656.jpg
 
YOu don't mention reading your patches, and all measurements should be to the thousandths of an inch, not the hundredths. We don't shoot .49 balls. We shoot .490" balls.

You need to invest $15.00 and buy Dutch Schoultz's Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System.
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

Its the best investment you will make, and it will help you diagnose those problems much better.

I believe you have to clean between shots to have any clue what the gun is doing as far as accuracy goes. If you don't clean, you are presenting a different sized chamber and bore for each shot, and that is no way to hit at any distance in a small group. Yes, you can shoot " faster", but not more accurately. Sorry about that. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

YOu have to read those spent patches. Every one of them. They tell you what went on in the barrel. They tell you if you need to change lubes. They tell you if you need to use more lube.

YOu have to mark your Ramrod( use tape until you settle on a load) and load to the mark every time.

You have to be nice to that round ball. Don't pound on it. Don't bounce the ramrod off that ball when its seated on the powder.

It would be helpful if you have a chronograph. Then you can see how loading the gun differently for each round makes a difference in velocity. You can see the Standard Deviation of Velocity widen, or narrow as you get that good load.

In humid conditions, you have to alter your cleaning habits a bit. I recommend running a cleaning patch down the barrel but stopping an inch before the vent hole. Pull the patch out. If the other side is clean enough, just flip the patch over, and this time go down to the breechplug to pull out the crud down there. In humid, hot, weather, you then need a second ( or third patch) to dry the barrel. You should feel a smooth, clean bore with that dry patch that goes down the barrel. That indicates that the barrel is as clean as it was after firing one shot and being cleaned, and that remains consistent through out your shooting, Shot after Shot.

I do recommend shooters use a metal Range rod, rather than a wooden ramrod that fits in the pipes under the barrel. Also, use a hand over hand method for lowering that RR down the barrel. Its the only way to NOT break a wooden ramrod. I see new guys grabbing the very end of a rod and trying to run it down the barrel in one stroke. YOu can watch as the rod bend, almost 90 degrees sometimes, as they try to force the rod down with all their strength. That is how rods break and get stuck through hands and wrists. And, usually, the only motive is that the shooter doesn't want to get his hands dirty. Why can't you take towels, a bottle of water, and some soap to clean your hands and equipment( including the RR) off periodically? I have a roll of paper towel in my trunk, with a gallon bottle of water, and there is always a small bottle of soap in my range box just for these purposes. A spray bottle of windex, or similar cleaner can be used to " spritz" a cleaning patch, or even used as a lube at the range. It then comes in handy with paper towels, to clean your hands, and the ramrod, and jags of crud that inevitably gets on them. I use the towels and cleaning patches to clean around the touch hole, wipe the frizzen, the flint, and the cock, as well as the barrel where powder residue obviously collects. A Cleaning patch with spit usually takes the residue out of the flash pan between shots, just as a matter of routine.

When weather gets colder, or dryer( usually its dryer in sub-freezing temperatures, unless its snowing) you change your cleaning routine. I use alcohol to clean the barrel, and forget about soap and water. I use one patch to clean the barrel, and one to dry it, or at least check to make sure the barrel is cleaned from using both sides of the first one. That second patch then gets some alcohol on it, and is used to wipe out the flashpan, and the frizzen and flint, etc.

You have to really be observant, and thinking in both Spring and Fall, because the temperatures, and the relative humidity can change so quickly, and require a modification of your cleaning and loading techniques. Most new shooters never even think to pay attention to the weather. It matters.

Do check your stock. The hanger for the barrel key should be elongated, and the key should move in any out with hand pressure, and not require a hammer, and drift, or screw driver to get it out. Sometimes stocks swell in the summer, and that can bind those barrel keys that hold the stock to the barrel. When the barrel heats up, the shots go all over. When the gun is allowed to cool down, the first shot or two comes out hitting close together. It will drive you nuts unless you check this, and fix it.

I also remember a case where the tang screw was tightened down so hard, that it was pushing up on the back of the barrel, and causing shots to go all over the place as the barrel warmed, either in the sun, or from a lot of shots fired. Keep the Gorillas away from those screws and bolts on your rifle. Use witness marks to tell you where the screws should be returned to when you put the bolts and screws back into the stock and action. The bolts and screws should be firm, but don't need to be screwed in so much you are crushing wood. The lockplate should be square to the barrel, and not canted by screwing down the lockbolts too much. Same with trigger guards, and tang bolts, or screws.

Sometimes the inletting of the barrel is just lousy. Epoxy bedding compound will fix that in a hurry, and permanently. If you glass bed the back 4-6 inches of the barrel, and the tang and breechplug, it will also strengthen the stock at its weakest point( because of all the wood removed.) If the bedding is lousy, it is usually evident by the fact that someone else can hold the stock, while you can move the barrel back and forth, or up and down in the stock with your hands. I don't see this often with factory built guns, but I have seen it once. Its easily checked.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
first thing that comes to mind, is to clean between shots. Second, have a friend load the rifle. And from time to time, just prime and dont load. That will tell you if you're flinching. You didnt say how you prime either. Dont use too much priming powder. You have a lot of good advice here. I'd say do as you've been told above and change one thing at a time so you isolate your variables.

Your bore should be shot in by now. If you didnt give it a really good cleaning before first shooting it, do so now. You probably have crud built up in there. Wipe the frizzen and flint between shots. Speaking of flints, make sure yours is sharp. Pick the vent hole between shots. The military should have taught you proper shooting techniques, use them. These rifles are shot the same way as an M-16 or whatever you used depending on when you were in. Concentrate on your sight picture and trigger control. Develop a load your gun likes. My first one, a CVA, had a hard time staying on a man sized silhouette at 50yds when i first got it. Once i found a load, it will do 3 inch groups at 100yds if i do my part and its a calm day. Just dont give up on this rifle. If it sparks well and you get reliable ignition, the rest is just a matter of a little experimenting, time, powder, and lead. Keep at it.
 
I have your rifle in percussion. I have found 70 grains to be optimal for best accuracy. At 50 grains it would shoot real low. If you are sighting in at 25 yards you can expect it to be a little high at 50 and low at 100. It has worked best for me to sight in at 50 yards, then I found very little deviation at 25 yards. At 100 yards it shoots about 5" low so I aim high on the target. I tried upping the charge at that distance and didn't really bring the ball up much and accuracy suffered with bigger charges. If you can get 3" groups out to 50 yards with a few bullseyes you are doing great. If you are hitting the target at 100 yards consider yourself accomplished! If you are a hunter, it is best to keep shots to about 70 yards or less. My comments apply only to the 28" Traditions .50 cal. barrel with 1:48 twist.
 
Not familiar with this particular gun, but your comments indicate it has adjustable sights. You may have already done this, but have you checked to make sure they're not moving around on you?
 
Thank you one and all for the info. Lots of grist for the mill and avenues to explore. I must confess I find it a bit overwhelming at times seeing as there are so many things that can affect accuracy at any given time. I have verified a couple of the things suggested (i.e. sight tightness). I did check my patches a while back but was unsure of exactly what I should be seeing. A more experienced shooter said they looked ok (no burn thru etc.) As was suggested I contacted Dutch Schoultz ( a real gentleman) and his info is on the way. I am looking forward to it with great anticipation. I'll send you an update down the road.
Cheers
 
Ghettogun could you please tell me what dia of ball, patch and patch lube you are using and do you wipe between shots?

Paul are you saying the key slot in the stock should be a bit wider than the key to allow for barrell expansion? The key on mine goes in smoothly by hand without hammering.
Thanks
 
The key slot in the hanger needs to be elongated, to allow the forestock to expand( lengthen) or shorten with the humidity. It doesn't take much swelling of the wood to have the shots start going everywhere.

If the keyslot is okay, then check the inletting for the barrel mortise. It should not allow side play, or movement of the barrel within the stock, when the key is in place, and the tang screw(s) are screwed down properly.
 
I have a traditions kentucky and its an excellent shooter! I had forum member J.D. Reharden the frizzen and its an excellent sparker even with the crappy flints im stuck with.
Shoots under 2" groups @ 100 yards, In fact, i am now getting 3 shots to touch at 100 yards with 110g 2f. Fouling in the bore is horrible thats why i prefer to use 3f as i can shoot all day long.

What powder are you using? Im sure you have said in your posts, but i just can not remember!
Target i shot 2 days before hunting season of 2006,
100_2210.jpg

40 yard head shot with 110g 3f goex and a .490 ball
100_2235-1.jpg
 
Kenrucky- I am currently using 50grains of 3F but I have tried loads in 5 grain increments from 40 to 60 grains. Next range trip I plan to go a little higher. BTW nice animal. Goog eating?
Cheers
 

Latest posts

Back
Top