Traditions Pennsylvania Flintlock issues.

[sturmkatze]

Grinding was my first thought, maybe a little easier, offset drilling a vent liner isn't that hard but I'd have to order one.

You don't need to. Just open the pan a little

 

[kyron4]

This is why I joined this site. This thread has been vey informative. Good stuff from good people.

 

[andy52]

I feel your pain. I bought my first and last traditions firearm. Very disappointing

I got it cheap so a little work and time is not a bad thing.

 

[andy52]

I have one of those rifles and that is NOT the original touch hole (vent). It looks like a white lightning vent liner by Chambers and it looks like the TH is covered up entirely by the pan, which is why it won't fire. Ideally you want the touch hole at the middle of the pan (left to right) right at the top or about slightly above the pan. Here's a photo of mine. Notice that the vent liner is a screw in liner that can be removed and replaced just using a screwdriver. Also, notice the placement of it. Ideally the vent hole would be up just a tiny bit more perhaps 1/16th of an inch or so in comparison to the pan. Because I had to take the picture at an angle to get it over the flashguard, there's a shadow over the hole itself. That liner is coned on the inside down to the actual hole. I would also recommend that you take a dremel to get that pan opening down quite a bit to expose the touch hole, but I wouldn't recommend drilling the hole bigger until you've tried it without drilling it.

Also, if you start drilling out that touch hole, be aware that that rifle uses a patent breech and not a normal breech and drilling it too much could ruin it. Basically the vent hole goes into a chamber directly behind the breech and a small channel goes from there into the middle of the breech. This supposedly gave a more complete and even burn that having the flash come in from the side. Personally, I prefer the normal breech by far to the patent breech.


View attachment 150490

The lock they use on these is actually a pistol-sized lock and it can be pretty picky to get it to work right. It actually takes very little powder to make it flash and fire the main charge. I found this lock worked best if I filled it half full, closed the frizzen and then quickly snapped my wrist to the right to move the powder to the far edge of the pan. This left an empty space next to the vent hole for the flash to instantaneously cover and there was no discernible delay in firing. If you overfill the pan on this lock you will get the dreaded "shhhhhhhhhh-boom!" because it has to burn down through the powder until it gets to the vent to finally ignite the main charge. This lock uses the 5/8" x 5/8" flints and if you use the 5/8" wide x 3/4" long flints you will continually smash the edge of your flint. So be sure you get the 5/8" x 5/8" flints.

To get excellent flint life out of these you need to set your flint up so that it touches your frizzen at a 55° to 60° angle. If you make the angle too low, it will smash the tip of your flint and you'll get very little life out of them. If you make the angle too big, it will hit the frizzen back behind the tip and will knock off a chunk of flint from the underside. It's really the Goldilocks effect. Here's an illustration of the angle you want it to hit the frizzen. To check it, leave the frizzen down with the pan closed and slowly lower the cock until it touches the face of the frizzen. If it hits the frizzen at this angle it will make a slicing motion across the face showering the pan with sparks; will last up to or over 100-shots, and will actually be self knapping.:

View attachment 150492

Now, another thing I should point out about this rifle. If you lean your head over the top of the stock to line up the sights, the recoil will smash that Roman Nose of the stock right into your cheek causing a nice bruise under your eye. To avoid that you can do a couple of different things. One is to move your head farther back on the stock so you're not pressing your cheek over the top to align the sights. Two you can use an old shotgunner's trick and just turn your nose against the stock allowing you to align the sight from the corner of your eye so the recoil slides it back along your cheek instead of slamming it into it.

One more thing that I will caution you of about that rifle - the ramrod is held in place with a ramrod retaining spring (leaf-type spring) that loops around the front lock bolt. DO NOT remove the front lock bolt or that spring will fall into the ramrod channel and you'll have to remove the barrel to get it out...ask me how I know. I had that happen often enough that I decided to pin that leaf spring in place. So I drilled a hole a little in front of the lock and pinned it in place. Then I would just rub one of those wood-filler crayons in walnut over it to hide it. Then I didn't have to worry about keeping the lock bolt in place anymore. I've scraped that out of the hole so you can see it more easily.

View attachment 150503

Very good info thanks. My knowledge of vent liners isn't good enough to tell one from the other.
I've got the lock working well, at first the frizzen spring was a little too heavy and wouldn't kick open. I softened it a bit and it works fine now.
Pretty much know all the lock geometry and positioning of the vent hole. After I grind the pan and redrill the vent hole I'll run my endoscope down and have a good look at the breach.

 

[45man]

Looks like it was set too deep and has the screw slot left, That does not help ignition either. I would also deepen the pan.

 

[andy52]

Looks like it was set too deep and has the screw slot left, That does not help ignition either. I would also deepen the pan.

Yes, about a 1/3 of the vent hole is obscured by the pan.

 

[Mike in FL]

He uses only real black.

 

[andy52]

Yes 3f down the tube, 4f in the pan.

 

[andy52]

Well, I'm pretty sure it will work now though I haven't tried it yet. Have a look at the photos and give me a yea or nay.
I took some material out of the pan, pulled the vent liner, and drilled it out to 1/16. I checked the breach and it's as clean as a whistle.

 

[deermanok]

Looks good.

 

[SDSmlf]

I have one of those rifles and that is NOT the original touch hole (vent). It looks like a white lightning vent liner by Chambers and it looks like the TH is covered up entirely by the pan, which is why it won't fire.

Well, I'm pretty sure it will work now though I haven't tried it yet. Have a look at the photos and give me a yea or nay.
I took some material out of the pan, pulled the vent liner, and drilled it out to 1/16. I checked the breach and it's as clean as a whistle.View attachment 150618View attachment 150619View attachment 150620View attachment 150617

Looks like you did a good job and should work fine. And that is NOT a Chambers White Lightening touch hole liner. Looks like a factory or equivalent replacement liner.

 

[Kansas Jake]

You did good.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@andy52, looking at the pictures of the adjustments that you made to the pan on your lock, I think you may have come up with a winning solution. Give it a try and let us know.

 

[andy52]

@andy52, looking at the pictures of the adjustments that you made to the pan on your lock, I think you may have come up with a winning solution. Give it a try and let us know.

If it works out, you'll see it in action when my team kicks your butt at the woods walk this fall..

 

[Grenadier1758]

It doesn't have to work too well for most teams to kick my team's butt. We're not trying to best your team, just the French Teams.

 

[andy52]

I know that Grenadier1758, I've told my team we have to be 1st place, or we get to draw to see who puts next year's shoot on. We're working on Speed and accuracy from the bag right now. We'll just have to wait to see if we have all we need for whatever scenario they present use.
The young man you meet has turned out to be and exceptional shot, he was printing 2-inch groups offhand at 50 yds with the Kirkland .40 I got for him.

 

[Grenadier1758]

We try to place after 7th place. We also don't have to put the shoot on. Takes the stress out so we can just have fun on the walk.

Great work being such an inspiration for that young man.

 

[andy52]

We try to place after 7th place. We also don't have to put the shoot on. Takes the stress out so we can just have fun on the walk.

Great work being such an inspiration for that young man.

I'm pretty sure we'll come in under 7th. I've never put on the woods walk at the Fort, I'm sure I could it's just a long haul to have to go down there that often.

 

[BP Addict]

While I really am truly grateful for Traditions still making (importing?) sidelock muzzleloaders, sometimes their quality control isn’t the greatest. In addition to the usual shavings in the mortise, my Pirate pistol had a huge gap between the front of the barrel and the stock (Photo 1). It was fine offhand but on a bench rest, it shot high. My daughter’s Alamo Rifle has a crooked Trigger Plate. In both of those cases, they said the guns were discontinued so the Lifetime Warranty is void.

I recently purchased a Brand-New Crockett rifle. When I tried to remove what I thought was a “Cleanout” screw, the head broke off (Photo 2). They said that because I didn’t take it out and oil it before shooting, per the instructions, it’s not covered. However, they did send me a replacement screw for free. The schematic says it’s a Tang Side Screw”. According to the folks at the Gun Works, it’s a “Drill Hole Plug Screw” and not to be removed. It actually looks like it was installed prior to bluing the barrel, which may explain why it didn't want to come out. The Customer Service Rep on the phone said they didn’t care what the diagram said, it's a Clean-out Screw. I didn’t oil it, so not covered! When I removed the Trigger Guard for the first time after taking out the screws, it broke in half, also not covered (Photos 3&4).

I agree that a Grinding Tip for a Rotary Tool would probably be the best fix but there are some things you can do to improve spark. You can drill a 1/8” cone in the face of the liner. I was originally told ¼” but that doesn’t leave enough “slot” to extract it after shooting, even with Anti-seize. I believe the Traditions Touchhole Liners are open on the inside as well. If not, you can drill that out too. I think I used a 1/8” bit for that as well (Photos 5&6). As others have stated the hole itself should be at least 1/16”.

Lastly, I’ve been having problems dialing in an older CVA Hawken with a Patent Breech. If you look inside the breech while the liner is removed, there is a small area to the right that the Flash has to travel through. It seems a bit restrictive to me. I’m not sure whether your Pennsylvania rifle has the same Patent breech. They work great in a Caplock but I’m not a big fan for flintlocks!

That’s my 8 or 10 cents worth. Good luck!

Walt

P.S.: I’m not trying to bag on Traditions, but it is what it is. With Lyman going out of the Muzzleloader business, I’d hate for Pedersoli to be the only game in town. Most folks couldn’t afford that. Maybe Cabela’s will have Investarm make more guns for them or possibly they (Investarm) will decide to have a more aggressive Marketing Program outside of the Importers.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Very good info thanks. My knowledge of vent liners isn't good enough to tell one from the other.
I've got the lock working well, at first the frizzen spring was a little too heavy and wouldn't kick open. I softened it a bit and it works fine now.
Pretty much know all the lock geometry and positioning of the vent hole. After I grind the pan and redrill the vent hole I'll run my endoscope down and have a good look at the breach.

That particular vent liner was designed by Jim Chambers and you shouldn't have to drill it out at all. Jim is a gun maker and a lock designer. His locks (and his guns of course) are very highly regarded. He calls that vent the white lightning because it works so well. It has an interior cone into the breach. I don't believe it is easily removable or replaceable and it takes up a lot more room on your rifle than any of the standard vent liners do. So it's pretty easy to identify once you've seen one.

Again, be very careful enlarging the vent hole. You really shouldn't need to and there's not much of anything you can do to recover from it if you drill it out too large. It's also very easy with Traditions patent breech design to go too far into it and drill into the opposite wall of the chamber under the breech.