Transporting a Muzzleloader?

[Ray-Vigo]

I was recently talking with a couple muzzleloader buddies and the course of our conversation turned to muzzleloader ownership and transport to and from the range/hunt ground. One of them mentioned the "Gun Free School Zone" law and we couldn't agree on whether traditional muzzle rifles fell under this law. One of the guys thought it didn't because these are "antique firearms", but another figured they did. What is the case with these old guns?

The talk also turned to the private property and transport issues, since one of the guys lives near a school in an apartment. He keeps his powder with a friend (can't have that stuff in an apartment under the fire code I guess) but I guess there is a private property exception to the gun school zone act, so he can have it there? At least that's what it sounded like to me.

We also talked about transport a bit-- I guess the school zone law requires some kind of a locked container if it applies. But it seems the most common case of transport for a long rifle or musket is a traditional canvas musket bag. Would it be possible to attach a lock to the canvas bag to comply if the law applies?

I'm pretty new to muzzle guns and the laws are confusing enough as it is, so when these guys got to talking it all got a little complicated. Any answers to those questions?

 

[necchi]

Haven't heard of it here in Minn.
No guns on school property of course, I think that's common nation wide. But if I live across the street from a school I can have anything I want in my home/apt.
The only carry law we have is enclosed with a zipper or tie. I could carry my enclosed gun to and from my car without hassle.

Don't know what they mean by "school zone", up here your either On or Off school property.

 

[J.D.]

In general, if a crime is committed, or perceived to have been committed with a ML, it is considered a firearm. I would contact someone within your state shooting association for a synopsis of your state and federal laws concerning school zones and restrictions there in.

 

[mykeal]

It's impossible to generalize about state and/or municipal codes regarding firearms. The specification that antique or replica antique guns are not firearms is a federal regulation and DOES NOT apply in state and municipal law. A few states and cities consider antique/replica guns as firearms for the purposes of concealed carry, registration and other specific purposes. Your particular state has a reputation of being somewhat unfriendly in this area, although not as bad as some (for instance, New York, and especially New York City). Your best bet for answers to those questions is to consult a local attorney (I would NOT rely on a local LEO or DA) recommended as knowledgeable in gun law by the NRA.

 

[napolean]

Good advise from mykeal. Some times it boils down to the individual law enforcment officer and the local district or county attorney as to whether a law has been broken. Since most jurisdictions believe the "ignorance of the law is no excuse" stance, intent does not matter. It would be worth it to avoid school zones on your way to a range or any time your transporting even if you have to go out of your way a few blocks. Here they have "Locked down" schools for less and this always makes the news.
Jon

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

For NOW at least, the government can't tell you where to live, (YOU haven't yet reached child molester status) so storage in a house or appt. within the 1,000 foot zone is exempted in MOST cases. Transportation to & from your residence is also covered in MOST cases. Where it maybe can get sticky is you loaning a bp rifle to a friend and HE drives around your neighborhood, past the school zone. Since he doesn't LIVE there, it may be a technical violation.

I've actually heard of folks "selling" a "loaner" for a dollar, with the official transfer paperwork (that ONLY the buyer & seller keep--nothing goes to the State) so the new owner can go use HIS new rifle. At the return to the original owner, the paper is simply shredded and the "deal" never existed. This can work for centerfire long guns in my State. To not do the paperwork is technically an illegal transfer, even if the purchaser is a registered gun owner with a valid permit to purchase firearms/hunting license.

That all being said, I would do EXACTLY as mykeal has suggested! Get a local opinion from a knowledgeable expert in case law in YOUR AREA!

Dave

 

[Jason Lewis]

so, are you planning on driving by a school waving the gun out the window like a flag? i think you are worrying about this way too much, just use the same common sense firearm transportation routines you should always be practicing. put it in a case, don't advertise that you are transporting a firearm and don't break any traffic laws and you will be just fine.

 

[Huntin_Dawg1215]

Being a law enforcement officer in Va. the best advise you got was to contact someone, such as a lawyer that is well knowlegable in firearm laws and seek an interrputation on the firearm laws and codes in your state and town. Also try gunlaws .com or packing.org. I taught a gun safety class in my state for 5 plus years and the number one questions was where can I carry in such and such state. Answer contact that state alot of state laws are similer but it is best to hear it stright from the horses mouth.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Ray, A friend of mine was forced out of business. He had a muzzleloading shop in his house. They built a school across the street from his place.
Up went the signs, away went his business.

You need to contact your local city charter and see what the laws are

 

[Shine]

We had a guy that used to show up at rendesvous on a harley with his rifle strapped across his back no case. Gotta love Maine you still see guns in the back windows of trucks here. Cops don't freak out over long guns unless they are being pointed at them. They are used to seeing them around. Even unloaded handguns sitting in plain view are legal. They just can't be loaded or hidden unless you have a permit. Which is not a problem to get.

 

[wittzo]

I asked a friend, who is a lawyer and gun collector, about it. He said if you live close to a school, there's an exemption; you can have guns on your own property, including your car. Due to the commerce laws and the GCA of '86,you can transport a gun in your car while you're on the highway or street, even if you're in the gun free zone. Before '86, it was illegal for any non-FFL holder to have a gun in their vehicle, unless they had a CCW. If you stop at school with a gun in your car, it's a legal gray area, it's legal because you're transporting, but you're in a gun-free zone. If it's out of sight of anyone, no one will know about it, so it's moot. Colleges aren't covered by the law, but some of them ban guns and they can expel you for bringing them on to campus. In Mississippi, your car is an extension of your home, it's legal to carry a loaded handgun in your car. It's a violation of Fish and Game laws to carry a loaded longarm.

A few months ago, a kid was shooting a BB gun next door to the school. School officials put the school into lockdown until the cops checked the area, they got the report that someone had a gun near the school. It's against the law in Tupelo and Saltillo, MS to shoot any gun in city limits and it's illegal to have a loaded airgun in your car in city limits, whether it's an airgun or firearm unless you're at a firing range or paintball field. Kids were shooting road signs with paintball guns and some were shooting pedestrians and pets with BB guns and airsoft guns. Even the smaller towns are severely PC, some kids made the front page of the paper in Houston, MS when they got caught playing airsoft in the park. They even had a picture of the confiscated Wal-mart $5 airsoft guns.

 

[Ray-Vigo]

I did take a look at the law and I found that there is "gun on private property" exception. I also would reckon that if they tried to nail you for a gun in your house simply because the house is near a school zone, that would run afoul of the Heller decision-- which seemed to protect, at the least, a gun in the home itself.

I also saw that you can drive through the school zone if you have your gun in a locked container. So I guess if you had a soft case rigged to take a cable lock to shut it, that would qualify. There doesn't seem to be anything in the law defining "container" as a hardshell item. Perhaps there's a market in soft cases for long rifles (longer than the usual cartridge gun) that readily take a cable lock to satisfy trasport laws?

As for whether muzzle guns are excepted from all this, I don't know. It doesn't look like it given the definition the law uses, though I'm not 100% sure.

Between the locals, the states and the feds, gun laws seem to be ridiculously complex as a whole, and often the laws seem to say different things.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Remember that you have both State and Federal laws on firearms. The Feds passed a "Gun Free Zone"( actually, a Free Fire Zone for nuts, and criminals) Law back under the Clinton/Gore administration. But, many states also passed their own Gun Free Zone laws, defining how close you could be to a school with a gun, and under what conditions. At the time, I was teaching a Hunter Safety class at a local park district building located within 1000 feet of a High School. I obtained a letter from the head of the Park District authorizing me to take guns to my courses, and still have it.

Some of these laws have since been declared Unconstitutional. I have not looked at the legal situation in many years so, talk to your local Gun law- knowledgeable Attorney About both State and Federal laws on this subject. I know of NO state where these laws do not allow residents to possess firearms in their own homes, nor to remove them and transport them encased and unloaded to the field or range, or to a store, gun show, etc.

I don't know about any law that would force a dealer to close his gun business that existed before the passing of the zone law. That would be an Ex post facto law, and normally, his business would be " Grandfathered" in as legal as long as he maintains it at that address.

I suspect the Friend just decided his profit from his business would not justify his time, and money to fight this law in the courts. Often, these decisions are made without ever discussing the legal problem with a lawyer, much less the NRA. There is financial help available from the NRA, GOA, Second Amendment Foundation, and some smaller gun clubs that have established a Legal defense fun, to help gun owners fight these battles. The McDonald Vs. Chicago case, now awaiting a decision of the U.S. Supreme Court is being financed by such groups, and not the plaintiffs, personally.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

so, are you planning on driving by a school waving the gun out the window like a flag? i think you are worrying about this way too much, just use the same common sense firearm transportation routines you should always be practicing. put it in a case, don't advertise that you are transporting a firearm and don't break any traffic laws and you will be just fine.

You are correct 99.99% of the time. And no, I'm not planning on waving my guns around, BUT do I risk being pulled-over for "Probable Cause" due to my NRA, NMLRA, USPSA, and IDPA bumper stickers?? One broken tail light and the conversation could come-up I guess, but I choose to NOT run my life in fear of my Government.

One other thing, I've learned to always err on the side of caution when giving an opinion on legal matters, and then telling the poster to contact his/her local officials.

Here in NJ in order to legally transport cased firearms locked in the trunk of your car, you should be enroute to a range, your residence, a gun shop, a gun smith or some other "justifiable" destination, and only stop the vehicle along the way as little as possible (food, rest room, and gas) while using a somewhat direct route. So I can't drive up to my Uncle's house for a social visit 50 miles away, then head back to the range with the guns in the car already. I'm SUPPOSED to go home to put the guns in the car after I get back from the Uncle's house. :shake: Even IF I have to drive past the range's driveway on my way home to pick-up the guns. :shake: Yes, it's feel-good law, but it's a law, and you don't want to lose your house defending yourself.

Dave