Well, I can't argue with what you have. If you do, you do. My local CVS and Eckerd carry two versions: Rubbing Alcohol, which is about 70% alcohol & 30% water, and Isopropyl, which is 91% (& 7% water). I use the isopropyl in my lubes.
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Triple 7 ?
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Herb
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Thanks, Russianblood. Stumpkiller, I mean 99% isopropyl alcohol, Smith grocery brand. But I have not found it in stores for a couple of years. It is 91% now, as you say. The reason I don't use the 70% stuff is that the 30% is water I don't want against the powder. Doubt it makes any important difference.
And Paul, I have not found lesser charges to be more accurate. I'd use 40 or 50 grains if that grouped better, but I have no problems with 80. And I didn't shoot the whole string (both days) to prove that Triple 7 is clean burning. I never wipe or clean between shots or powder changes, up to 40 or 50 shots, which is enough for one session for me. When it is near 90 degrees, and I have shot at 100 degrees, and 8% relative humidity and I ain't got no spit to put on patches, I'm happy with my lube. I have no reason to wipe the bore after loading. But I appreciate your telling us that.
Noticed in a past session that Swiss powder fouled the breech area (I was using only 1/3 alcohol on the patches with the MOS), and that Goex fouled near the muzzle. Could feel the fouling as I seated a ball. Increasing the mix to 1:1 decreased the fouling so I couldn't feel it. I also think the lubed wad helps keeps a cleaner bore. Again I emphasize I only test these other powders, I find Goex cheaper and entirely adequate for all my needs. With my lube, I have no problem with bore fouling, so the "cleaner burning" features of Triple 7 mean nothing to me. But for those who want to use Pyrodex RS or Triple 7 in their "roundball" guns, those powders work very well when you know how to use them. But I must say here that I have not yet learned to use Pyrodex P (about FFFG grade compared to RS's FFG grade). In fact it was my correspondence with Chris Hodgdon on that subject that resulted in him sending me the Triple 7, and new cans of Pyrodex P, to test.
And Paul, I have not found lesser charges to be more accurate. I'd use 40 or 50 grains if that grouped better, but I have no problems with 80. And I didn't shoot the whole string (both days) to prove that Triple 7 is clean burning. I never wipe or clean between shots or powder changes, up to 40 or 50 shots, which is enough for one session for me. When it is near 90 degrees, and I have shot at 100 degrees, and 8% relative humidity and I ain't got no spit to put on patches, I'm happy with my lube. I have no reason to wipe the bore after loading. But I appreciate your telling us that.
Noticed in a past session that Swiss powder fouled the breech area (I was using only 1/3 alcohol on the patches with the MOS), and that Goex fouled near the muzzle. Could feel the fouling as I seated a ball. Increasing the mix to 1:1 decreased the fouling so I couldn't feel it. I also think the lubed wad helps keeps a cleaner bore. Again I emphasize I only test these other powders, I find Goex cheaper and entirely adequate for all my needs. With my lube, I have no problem with bore fouling, so the "cleaner burning" features of Triple 7 mean nothing to me. But for those who want to use Pyrodex RS or Triple 7 in their "roundball" guns, those powders work very well when you know how to use them. But I must say here that I have not yet learned to use Pyrodex P (about FFFG grade compared to RS's FFG grade). In fact it was my correspondence with Chris Hodgdon on that subject that resulted in him sending me the Triple 7, and new cans of Pyrodex P, to test.
paulvallandigham
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Herb: I have found that when a gun is developing dirt near the muzzle, its a good indication that not enough lube is being used. I think this is also why running a lubed patch down the barrel after seating the PRB works to reduce residue, and also reduces SDV. Obviously the groups you are shooting are very good, and no one would complain about them. However, I do get better groups myself when I do clean between shots. I get vertical stringing of my shots when I don't clean and lube between shots. I don't see that in these groups. I do see two separate groups in that good target you shot, which reminds me of the problem I still am working on, which is always focusing on the front sight, and not looking at the target when I fire the gun. At close ranges, with large holes, it is too tempting to look at the target at the last fraction of a second, and that always results in a hit that is just a little away from the main group. Glad to see I am not alone on this.
Herb
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Yes, it does help me align the sights. And I don't need a black center to lose the shots in (sometimes they are very difficult to see in the black). I made a template that fits on an 8.5 x 11" paper and spray paint the bull. You can adjust the gap so the front sight just covers it. I use a 6 o'clock hold on the bar. Tried to find some felt at WalMart today for overpowder wads, but the stuff is polyester or acrylic, synthetics which I guess melt in a bore.
My leather split is from a saddle shop that splits cowhide (the leather is cut to a uniform thickness and the bottom part is waste). Used both 3/4" and 7/8" diameter, and 9/16". But the small one gets edgeways in the bore, so I put it inside the patch. The 3/4" size is best, and about .030 is good. The thicker stuff (about .050) doesn't cup into the bore. I have soaked it in Murphy Oil Soap and also used the 1:1 MOS/ alcohol lube on it, they both work.
My leather split is from a saddle shop that splits cowhide (the leather is cut to a uniform thickness and the bottom part is waste). Used both 3/4" and 7/8" diameter, and 9/16". But the small one gets edgeways in the bore, so I put it inside the patch. The 3/4" size is best, and about .030 is good. The thicker stuff (about .050) doesn't cup into the bore. I have soaked it in Murphy Oil Soap and also used the 1:1 MOS/ alcohol lube on it, they both work.
Herb
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This is for you "black powder is the only thing" people. Went out to shoot Goex 2F as a baseline, and then Pyrodex RS and Triple 7 2F in my Hawken style plains rifle I built. Has a 32" Green River barrel, caplock, Hot Shot nipple. .530 Hornadys, CCI 11 caps, old .020 (.012 crush) pillow ticking, 1:1 Murphy's Oil Soap and 91% alcohol, 3/4" .030 leather overpowder wad lubed ditto. 100 grains at 50 yards. Six shots averaged 1679 fps, spread 76 fps, group 1.15".
Then to Pyrodex RS, ditto, no 2F black booster. Notice that Shot #1 is 100 fps slower than Shot #2, I don't know why. Struck in the group. Mean was 1696 fps for 8 shots, spread was 167 fps, group 2.25". Double the black, that proves that black is best.
Then shot 95 grains of Pyrodex RS but put in a 5 grain Goex 2F booster. Blew the patches to shreds, even with the overpowder wad. Averaged 1701 fps for five, about a six inch group. So this combination does not need a black powder booster (in a percussion rifle).
Went to 100 grains of Triple 7 2F with no black booster. Same patch and overpowder wad. Shredded the patches, no accuracy. About 1923 fps.
So I need heavier patching, like Wal Mart awning or maybe Levi material. Did this successfully before, but forgot what I did. Used a wadded up patch for overpowder wad then, worked good.
The maximum charge in .54 caliber for Pyrodex RS is 120 grains and for Triple 7 2F loose powder it is also 120 grains. It is 100 grains with pellets, but they are not for sidelock muzzleloaders.
Then to Pyrodex RS, ditto, no 2F black booster. Notice that Shot #1 is 100 fps slower than Shot #2, I don't know why. Struck in the group. Mean was 1696 fps for 8 shots, spread was 167 fps, group 2.25". Double the black, that proves that black is best.
Then shot 95 grains of Pyrodex RS but put in a 5 grain Goex 2F booster. Blew the patches to shreds, even with the overpowder wad. Averaged 1701 fps for five, about a six inch group. So this combination does not need a black powder booster (in a percussion rifle).
Went to 100 grains of Triple 7 2F with no black booster. Same patch and overpowder wad. Shredded the patches, no accuracy. About 1923 fps.
So I need heavier patching, like Wal Mart awning or maybe Levi material. Did this successfully before, but forgot what I did. Used a wadded up patch for overpowder wad then, worked good.
The maximum charge in .54 caliber for Pyrodex RS is 120 grains and for Triple 7 2F loose powder it is also 120 grains. It is 100 grains with pellets, but they are not for sidelock muzzleloaders.
1eyemountainmen
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What lube do you guys use? I like the bore butter, it is cheap and works well. How do you seat the powder charge? A lot of Hodgdon says to seat firmly. What's firmly?
Herb
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I use only one patch lubricant, and that is Murphy's Oil Soap and 91 % isopropyl alcohol, one to one. Wet about 25 pre-cut patches good with a squeeze bottle, squeeze the patches together to soak them uniformly, then store them in a percussion cap can as I use them. I seat all my loads the same when I shoot from the bench, and that is with a steel range rod. The ball always slides down with little resistance, due to the fouling being soft, and then I give the rod one good, short thump to be certain the ball is firmly seated. Tried to seat the ball lightly with the black powder load a while back, and had a less accurate group, probably due to uneven seating.
I have had some really good groups with Pyrodex RS, and have found that you have to have a good, thick patch, which is much more important than the seating pressure. Pyrodex does take 3 or 4 shots to "season" the clean bore, or one fouled with black powder, for uniform velocity and accuracy, see my chronograph dope.
In Rifle Magazine No. 70, July-August 1980, Layne Simpson discussed Pyrodex in his article "Hunting Loads for the .50 Muzzleloader" (a .50 caliber Jonathan Browning Mountain rifle). He wrote: "Three rules must be followed when hunting with Pyrodex: it must be more heavily compressed than black powder when loading; it requires a hotter percussion cap; and it requires a larger flash-hole orifice through the nipple. When loading a projectile atop a charge of Pyrodex, I lean on the ramrod with what I estimate to be about fifty pounds of pressure. Remington and CCI caps are the most reliable that I have used to date, and the Uncle Mike's "Hot-Shot" nipple, which was designed by the late Dan Pawlak (who also co-developed Pyrodex), has an orifice that allows enough fire to reach the charge for dependable ignition." He used Remington No. 11 caps, and I don't think he meant CCI magnums. He used Butler Creek Poly Patches or Ox Yoke .015 patch lubed with Hodgdon Spit Patch and no overpowder wad.
I have had some really good groups with Pyrodex RS, and have found that you have to have a good, thick patch, which is much more important than the seating pressure. Pyrodex does take 3 or 4 shots to "season" the clean bore, or one fouled with black powder, for uniform velocity and accuracy, see my chronograph dope.
In Rifle Magazine No. 70, July-August 1980, Layne Simpson discussed Pyrodex in his article "Hunting Loads for the .50 Muzzleloader" (a .50 caliber Jonathan Browning Mountain rifle). He wrote: "Three rules must be followed when hunting with Pyrodex: it must be more heavily compressed than black powder when loading; it requires a hotter percussion cap; and it requires a larger flash-hole orifice through the nipple. When loading a projectile atop a charge of Pyrodex, I lean on the ramrod with what I estimate to be about fifty pounds of pressure. Remington and CCI caps are the most reliable that I have used to date, and the Uncle Mike's "Hot-Shot" nipple, which was designed by the late Dan Pawlak (who also co-developed Pyrodex), has an orifice that allows enough fire to reach the charge for dependable ignition." He used Remington No. 11 caps, and I don't think he meant CCI magnums. He used Butler Creek Poly Patches or Ox Yoke .015 patch lubed with Hodgdon Spit Patch and no overpowder wad.
1eyemountainmen
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Will #11 caps set off triple 7 powder??????//
walruskid1
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yes. but after shooting triple7 for about a year, i have returned to goex. im' getting better results & more consistant results. yours may vary.
Herb
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Yes. I use CCI No. 11 and some Remington No. 11. Have tried and chronographed CCI Magnum caps, but in my limited trial they gave only maybe 15 - 20 fps more and were less accurate, this with black powder. Will go out one of these days and try the magnums with a standard nipple and Pyrodex RS or Triple 7 and then a Hot Shot nipple and the standard CCI caps. But I use a Hot Shot nipple on all my percussion firearms, and CCI 11 caps.
Hodgdon's free little booklet "Pyrodex" says on page 9, using Pyrodex, "Seat projectile against powder charge as air space between powder charge and projectile may create a hazardous situation. Do not pound on or bounce the ramrod on the ball. ALL propellants are impact sensitive and may ignite on impact."
Hodgdon's booklet "Pyrodex and Triple Seven" says "Seat the projectile firmly against the powder." No where have I found that they say to seat the ball with extra force. Under "Helpful Hints": "If you encounter poor accuracy while shooting patched round balls, inspect fired patches. If patches are frayed or torn, reduce powder charge until patches are left intact, or change patch paterial, or use a felt wad between the patched ball and the powder charge."
In Rifle Magazine No.99, May-June 1985, Sam Fadala says in "Pyrodex Update": "Loading Rod Presssure: Black powder burns better and more consistently when about 40 pounds of pressure is used to seat the bullet or ball on the charge. When the pressure varies, standard deviation from the mean velocity increases. The same was found to be true of Pyrodex, with the exception that 50 pounds' loading pressure offered better ignition and consistency in terms of standard deviation than lighter pressure on the loading rod or ramrod." If you want to know how much that is, set your unloaded ML rifle's butt on your bathroom scale and push down in the bore with your ramrod or range rod. Just add the 40 or 50 pounds to your rifle's weight.
Fadala says under "Percussion Caps: In an attempt to determine if ignition was influenced by different brands of percussion caps, it was found that hotter caps were more effective than cooler ones with Pyrodex." (He does not say which brand of caps and which are hotter or cooler. I don't know if CCI magnum caps were marketed yet in 1985). "Furthermore, I felt the Hot Shot nipple offered somewhat better ignition. In a couple of cases, differences between nipples was difficult to determine, but sometimes the Hot Shot nipple was decidedly better."
Hodgdon's free little booklet "Pyrodex" says on page 9, using Pyrodex, "Seat projectile against powder charge as air space between powder charge and projectile may create a hazardous situation. Do not pound on or bounce the ramrod on the ball. ALL propellants are impact sensitive and may ignite on impact."
Hodgdon's booklet "Pyrodex and Triple Seven" says "Seat the projectile firmly against the powder." No where have I found that they say to seat the ball with extra force. Under "Helpful Hints": "If you encounter poor accuracy while shooting patched round balls, inspect fired patches. If patches are frayed or torn, reduce powder charge until patches are left intact, or change patch paterial, or use a felt wad between the patched ball and the powder charge."
In Rifle Magazine No.99, May-June 1985, Sam Fadala says in "Pyrodex Update": "Loading Rod Presssure: Black powder burns better and more consistently when about 40 pounds of pressure is used to seat the bullet or ball on the charge. When the pressure varies, standard deviation from the mean velocity increases. The same was found to be true of Pyrodex, with the exception that 50 pounds' loading pressure offered better ignition and consistency in terms of standard deviation than lighter pressure on the loading rod or ramrod." If you want to know how much that is, set your unloaded ML rifle's butt on your bathroom scale and push down in the bore with your ramrod or range rod. Just add the 40 or 50 pounds to your rifle's weight.
Fadala says under "Percussion Caps: In an attempt to determine if ignition was influenced by different brands of percussion caps, it was found that hotter caps were more effective than cooler ones with Pyrodex." (He does not say which brand of caps and which are hotter or cooler. I don't know if CCI magnum caps were marketed yet in 1985). "Furthermore, I felt the Hot Shot nipple offered somewhat better ignition. In a couple of cases, differences between nipples was difficult to determine, but sometimes the Hot Shot nipple was decidedly better."
barebackjack
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I dont know about triple 7, but I have done work with pyrodex. It groups the same for me as Goex 3F, it hangfires and missfires WAY more (ive never had a missfire with real BP yet), and in my opinion is dirtier.
It gives me more velocity, but if im starin down a big buck and I have a missfire with substitutes, all that energy dont mean jack.
I have to drive 263 miles one way for retail BP, its worth it.
Boone
It gives me more velocity, but if im starin down a big buck and I have a missfire with substitutes, all that energy dont mean jack.
I have to drive 263 miles one way for retail BP, its worth it.
Boone
Herb
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You are shooting a percussion rifle with a standard nipple. A Hot Shot nipple alone will cure your hang fires and misfires.
As for wanting a reliable load for hunting, Layne Simpson, in the article I referenced above (Hunting Loads for the .50 Muzzleloader) wrote in it: "From a hunter's viewpoint, Pyrodex is less affected by damp weather. Less important, it leaves a minimum of fouling residue....The problem with black powder lies in the fact that its residue is much more hydroscopic than the residue left by Pyrodex, and with a little humidity, it quickly becomes a mass of gunk that can cause a misfire by clogging up the nipple orifice and drum after just one shot.
"A good example of this problem with black powder happened to me during a Tennessee hog hunt. We were hunting with dogs on a hot and humid day when a companion wounded a large and rather irate boar and yelled for me to finish the animal if I had the chance. The fact that I completley missed a broadside shot at thirty paces is by no means my reason for relating this tale, as the reason came later at the end of the day's hunt. After shooting at the boar, which I might add was finished a short time later by the fellow who started the ruckus, I reloaded with FFg and didn't fire my rifle again until back in camp. I had forgotten to bring along a ball screw so decided to fire the rifle to clean it for the next hunting session. After expending a dozen caps and almost wearing out a nipple pick, I removed the nipple, picked out the thick gumbo residue, dribbled a few grains of uncontaminated powder into the drum, and tried it again. The rifle did produce smoke and noise and sent the projectile flying, but after all that effort, it still hangfired. I could go on and on about the trials and tribulations of hunting with black powder, but I've made my point. I have especially had ignition problems with black powder when hunting on rainy days even after my load-waterproofing efforts, which I'll get into another time."
I have had this wet gunk in a flintlock pan, and likely most of us know what it is.
As for wanting a reliable load for hunting, Layne Simpson, in the article I referenced above (Hunting Loads for the .50 Muzzleloader) wrote in it: "From a hunter's viewpoint, Pyrodex is less affected by damp weather. Less important, it leaves a minimum of fouling residue....The problem with black powder lies in the fact that its residue is much more hydroscopic than the residue left by Pyrodex, and with a little humidity, it quickly becomes a mass of gunk that can cause a misfire by clogging up the nipple orifice and drum after just one shot.
"A good example of this problem with black powder happened to me during a Tennessee hog hunt. We were hunting with dogs on a hot and humid day when a companion wounded a large and rather irate boar and yelled for me to finish the animal if I had the chance. The fact that I completley missed a broadside shot at thirty paces is by no means my reason for relating this tale, as the reason came later at the end of the day's hunt. After shooting at the boar, which I might add was finished a short time later by the fellow who started the ruckus, I reloaded with FFg and didn't fire my rifle again until back in camp. I had forgotten to bring along a ball screw so decided to fire the rifle to clean it for the next hunting session. After expending a dozen caps and almost wearing out a nipple pick, I removed the nipple, picked out the thick gumbo residue, dribbled a few grains of uncontaminated powder into the drum, and tried it again. The rifle did produce smoke and noise and sent the projectile flying, but after all that effort, it still hangfired. I could go on and on about the trials and tribulations of hunting with black powder, but I've made my point. I have especially had ignition problems with black powder when hunting on rainy days even after my load-waterproofing efforts, which I'll get into another time."
I have had this wet gunk in a flintlock pan, and likely most of us know what it is.
paulvallandigham
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Some folks don't know what high humidity is, but we do. I wipe the barrel out with a couple of patches between loads just to remove that gunk. Load a dry barrel and it fires. Load a wet barrel, and it often won't. Always fire a couple of caps to make sure you have removed, or now burned out, any oil that may be in the flash channel or chamber. Once it is cleared, Keep it clean, and dry. That is why we carry nipple picks( wires) to run down the nipple before capping for the next shot. Sure, it slows the loading process, but the gun goes off, no? I hunted in Tennessee on a Labor Day weekend when the humidity was almost 100 %. We had the same troubles you experienced. My gun was a flintlock, instead of a percussion, and I had trouble with soap in my pan because I apparently didn't clean the bottom of the frizzen well enough. I learned- the hard way. Those hogs can get exciting to be among.
