Triple Seven

[David W.]

:thumbsup:

 

[Josh Smith]

Hi Herb,

Were you getting a clean "BOOM" from this stuff, or did you get a "snap BOOM" effect?

In other words, could you hear the cap go off first? This slight delay was why I was disappointed in Pyrodex.

Thanks,

Josh

 

[Herb]

Josh, every one was a CRACK! There was no hangfire or failure to fire. The reason is, the powder is right there at the powder drum, no inch long pencil-sized hole for it to bridge over. Not a single failed shot, no crud ring, and no wiping or cleaning for the whole test.

I have almost 50 pounds of Goex black powder on hand, some of it Swiss. Black powder can be regulated, making it hard to market. In the county where Salt Lake City is, they outlawed the sale of black powder as I understand it, I know you can't buy it in gunshops in Salt Lake City. You can't buy it here in Vernal, either, regulations on storage of it and insurance costs make it uneconomical to sell. I don't care what powder people shoot, but I do care that discussions about the alternate powders be factual and honest.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

The problem Herb is there's a lot of guns with a patent breech. The subs don't work that well in those.

Someone reading your results will be mislead that they can do the same without realizing their gun will have a hard time.

Even though BP is a pain to buy. It does work in all guns. :idunno:

 

[Herb]

Pursuing the honesty theme: "It won't work in any flintlock I've seen." "...pretty much worthless in a flintlock".

This is a .58 Green River Rifle Works barreled Hawken I built, with a solid tang. The flash hole is drilled into the side of the barrel, there is no patent breech powder chamber. (You can click on the 100% emblem at the lower right hand corner of your screen to enlarge this).

First target at 50 yards on the left is 90 grains of Swiss 1 1/2, .575 ball, .018 pillow ticking, chronograph troubles, but two shots averaged 1507 fps. Next target right is 90 grains of Triple 7 2F with 5 grains of Goex 4F booster in the bore, primed with black powder. .562 ball, .020 duck, leather over powder wad, 1727 fps, 54 spread. Third target is 100 grains of Goex 2F, .562 ball (#1 was a blown patch), 1525 fps, 19 spread. Fourth is 100 gr T7 2F with 5 gr Goex 2F booster, .020 pillow tick and leather OPW, 1801 fps, 25 spread. I shot at the middle of the paper, no aiming point. All Triple 7 shots normal, no failure to fire or crud ring. T7 is absolutely reliable in a standard flintlock barrel (NOT a hooked breech setup), with 5 grains of black powder booster as Hodgdon recommends.

 

[Herb]

Capper, I agree with you. Most of them have patent breechs and that is the problem at least with Pyrodex RS. I don't know about Pyrodex P and Triple 7, I have shot only several modern rifles like this. Hodgdon's web site says "The principle use of Pyrodex P is in all pistols and in smaller bore rifles, .45 caliber and down. P is also useful as a priming charge in guns which have a tortuous or fouled ignition channel or other ignition problems". In other words, use Pyodex P as a booster charge for Pyrodex RS! (They are talking about the patent, hooked breech rifles here). Capper, if people read these threads, they should realize the problem with the small priming chamber, the need to keep them clean and bump the butt to seat the powder into that chamber, and if they can't make the other powders work, I'm all for their using real black powder. I am anyway, I have no interest in people using these other powders, only in honest reporting on their use.

 

[Zonie]

I'm glad to hear that you think the substitute powders are every bit as good as real black powder but that has not been my experience with Pyrodex or Black Canyon powder.

Getting to the "honesty theme" Capper is quite correct in my opinion about the differences in the breech.

Your percussion longrifles like my percussion longrifles are using a short drum which is attached directly to the side of the barrel.

When the powder is poured into one of these guns it is never more than 1/2 inch from the bottom of the nipple to the bore. With this short distance there is no great loss of heat of the caps gasses before it finds itself in the main powder charge.

With most Factory made guns this short gas path doesn't exist. In fact, the flame channel can be over 1 inch long in some guns and the small diameter of this flame channel can cool the caps gasses as well as serve as a point of blockage for a newly poured powder charge.
In guns with this "powder chamber" or "Patent breech" as some like to call it design the synthetic powders often are delayed in their ignition. At least that's been my experience with the TC Hawken, the Lyman Great Plains Rifle and the Pedersoli Tryon I own and as it was with the CVA Hawken and Frontier rifles I used to own.

As I have never bought T7 due to its high price ($27.99 the last time I looked) I won't comment about it beyond what I've already said up above.

 

[William O.]

Like Zonie said, reduce the charge by 15%, but if you can get Goex without going to a lot of trouble then why change. I used it in my caplocks, never had a problem getting it to go off but even though you'll use less of it by volume it's still more expensive than real black powder.

In my area Triple 7 is easy to find but costs over $30 per pound tax included while I can get Goex delivered for around $14 a can. :v

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Makes you wonder why it cost so much? :idunno:

 

[Zonie]

If you think $30/pound is expensive you should look at the prices those other guys are paying for their T7 Pellets.

There going for around $26 for 50, 50 grain pellets. That's $72.80 a pound not including tax.

Even on sale at Cabela's super duper price of $21.99 for 50, 50 grain pellets it will cost ye $61.57 a pound!

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Ridiculous.

Inline shooters are gullible.

 

[HOGGHEAD]

Herb you seem to be on top of it. And you present your arguments well. So I hail to you for that.

But might I ask. It shows you are from UT. Might I assume that you live in an area where there is not alot of humidity?? Or humidity swings??

It is good that you have not had any crud ring problems. But I do personally know a bunch of guys who have had crud rings problems with T-7. And I believe that is because of two factors. First is humidity(or simply moisture). And second is the higher temp. needed to ignite the powder.

I can not post all the pictures of all the nice rifles you have. And I am a bit envious of that. But that still does not change the high hygroscopic properties of T-7 powder.

However I have been shooting all types of MZ's for over 40 years. So I have a bit of experience with them. And where I live we have extreme swings of equilibrium moisture content. and I believe that has alot to do with the inconsistencies we have had with T-7, and a few other powders. Tom.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Hi Herb,

Were you getting a clean "BOOM" from this stuff, or did you get a "snap BOOM" effect?

In other words, could you hear the cap go off first? This slight delay was why I was disappointed in Pyrodex.

There has never been any delay with Triple Seven in my rifles.

 

[David W.]

If you think $30/pound is expensive you should look at the prices those other guys are paying for their T7 Pellets.

There going for around $26 for 50, 50 grain pellets. That's $72.80 a pound not including tax.

Even on sale at Cabela's super duper price of $21.99 for 50, 50 grain pellets it will cost ye $61.57 a pound!

Why? Convenience, laziness, marketing, and last, but not least....STUPIDITY!

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Herb you seem to be on top of it. And you present your arguments well. So I hail to you for that.

But might I ask. It shows you are from UT. Might I assume that you live in an area where there is not alot of humidity?? Or humidity swings??

It is good that you have not had any crud ring problems. But I do personally know a bunch of guys who have had crud rings problems with T-7. And I believe that is because of two factors. First is humidity(or simply moisture). And second is the higher temp. needed to ignite the powder.

I can not post all the pictures of all the nice rifles you have. And I am a bit envious of that. But that still does not change the high hygroscopic properties of T-7 powder.

However I have been shooting all types of MZ's for over 40 years. So I have a bit of experience with them. And where I live we have extreme swings of equilibrium moisture content. and I believe that has alot to do with the inconsistencies we have had with T-7, and a few other powders. Tom.

That may not be the answer. Colorado is low in humidity and cold. I've gotten lots of crud rings with T7. That's just the way that powder is. That's why most of the inline guys have switched to BH 209.

 

[mlr]

If you think $30/pound is expensive you should look at the prices those other guys are paying for their T7 Pellets.

There going for around $26 for 50, 50 grain pellets. That's $72.80 a pound not including tax.

Even on sale at Cabela's super duper price of $21.99 for 50, 50 grain pellets it will cost ye $61.57 a pound!

The majority of folks in my area that shoot muzzle loaders are deer hunters. They fire their rifles a couple times max prior to the hunt to check their sights. Fifty shots will last these folks ten years. For them it would be considered cheap at $70 for nearly ten years supply of powder. I have a friend who "shoot a lot". He still has powder left in the original can he purchased when he bought his rifle 6 or 7 years back. This is the type shooter that pellets were developed for. Casual shooters who are only looking at the end result. Not the shooters who enjoy the full sport from the beginning of the loading process to the end when the ball meets the target.

Not everyone shoots the way we do. I go through a pound of black every trip I make to the range if I take my cartridge rifles with me.

Michael

 

[ebiggs1]

I'm glad to hear that you think the substitute powders are every bit as good as real black powder but that has not been my experience with Pyrodex or Black Canyon powder.

Getting to the "honesty theme" Capper is quite correct in my opinion about the differences in the breech.

Your percussion longrifles like my percussion longrifles are using a short drum which is attached directly to the side of the barrel.

When the powder is poured into one of these guns it is never more than 1/2 inch from the bottom of the nipple to the bore. With this short distance there is no great loss of heat of the caps gasses before it finds itself in the main powder charge.

With most Factory made guns this short gas path doesn't exist. In fact, the flame channel can be over 1 inch long in some guns and the small diameter of this flame channel can cool the caps gasses as well as serve as a point of blockage for a newly poured powder charge.
In guns with this "powder chamber" or "Patent breech" as some like to call it design the synthetic powders often are delayed in their ignition. At least that's been my experience with the TC Hawken, the Lyman Great Plains Rifle and the Pedersoli Tryon I own and as it was with the CVA Hawken and Frontier rifles I used to own.

As I have never bought T7 due to its high price ($27.99 the last time I looked) I won't comment about it beyond what I've already said up above.

I don't understand this whole thread. My guns shoot just about what ever I throw down the barrel. I stick with black powder in the flintlocks but I use black powder, Pinnacle and Pyrodex in the cap guns. Never tried T7.
I haven't seen any ignition problems or cleaning issues or rust.
I also don't understand the “patent breech” thing either. I mostly shoot TC's with their patent breech but what is the difference between that and a flat breech in a 36 or 32 cal rifle. Isn't the powder area the same? If you are using enough powder to fill the powder chamber, again so what? Examining the breech in my TC cap gun, the nipple looks pretty close to the powder and has to make one 90 degree turn. So does the drum breech nipple. What am I missing here?

I am pretty much with Herb on this one as my experience is similar to his.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I don't think your experience is like Herb's at all. If you read his post again you'll see he's using primed loads.

I can get all the subs to work too. I can use Powerbelts and a scope too. Why should I?

Real BP works just fine and is what the gun should be shooting. At least to me it's what it should be shooting.

Why should I shoot a powder that was invented 150 years after the era i'm trying to represent?

 

[David W.]

I don't think your experience is like Herb's at all. If you read his post again you'll see he's using primed loads.

I can get all the subs to work too. I can use Powerbelts and a scope too. Why should I?

Real BP works just fine and is what the gun should be shooting. At least to me it's what it should be shooting.

Why should I shoot a powder that was invented 150 years after the era i'm trying to represent?

One part I don't concider is having to carry too many different powders around. If I am out hunting, the last thing I want to is fumble for that 5 gr BP, then load the sub, then back to BP to prime the pan. By that time Mr. deer will be across the river and in the next county.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Yup! Much easier to just carry the prime. :grin: