Triple Seven

[Billnpatti]

I have been glancing over the posts on the subject of the various black powder substitutes. It has been my experience that they work just fine in a caplock if you will use a magnum cap. They clean up just as easily as black powder and, in spite of the many folks who say they are easier to clean up, I have found them to be much the same to clean up. For a caplock there is not all that much difference between black powder and the substitutes. The main difference is in shelf life. Black powder has no shelf life if you keep it dry and cool. The stuff will last forever. Not so for most, if not all, of the substitutes. The manufacturers will tell you that their product will deteriorate after opening even if kept closed up and in a cool dry place. So, if you have a caplock and like using any of the substitutes, go for it but realize that the left over powder after hunting season is not likely to perform the same next year because of its shelf life. If you don't use it all one year, you will be better off next year going and buying a new fresh can.

If this was covered earlier in this discussion, 'Scuse me! :idunno:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

What gun are you shooting the subs in Bill?

 

[mtmshieldshotmail.com]

...I also don't understand the “patent breech” thing either. I mostly shoot TC's with their patent breech but what is the difference between that and a flat breech in a 36 or 32 cal rifle. Isn't the powder area the same? If you are using enough powder to fill the powder chamber, again so what? Examining the breech in my TC cap gun, the nipple looks pretty close to the powder and has to make one 90 degree turn. So does the drum breech nipple. What am I missing here?

I am pretty much with Herb on this one as my experience is similar to his.

I agree. I've been shooting a T/C .54 Renegade with original barrel and GM drop-in .32 and .54 barrels for about 25 years, with Pyrodex RS (P in the .32). I can't remember ever having a powder-related misfire. However, my Beretta commemorative percussion shotgun, an over-under, was particularly troublesome firing the lower barrel; that was a really LONG path for the flame to follow, from cap to powder charge.
I've got a flint GPR kit waiting to be assembled; If I ever find time to start it, I'll place my first ever order for BP.

Regards,
Mike

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Not sure how we got off topic, but it's about T7. :idunno:

 

[mtmshieldshotmail.com]

Not sure how we got off topic, but it's about T7. :idunno:

Oh, OK; back on topic...I started using T7 not too long after it came out. Works about the same for me as Pyrodex, with reduced load. In powder form, T7 works well for me in my cap locks. But I will probably replace the T7 I have on the shelf with more Pyrodex, because I can get Pyrodex locally for a very reasonable price (not much more than what I paid in the 80's. I've got a cardboard canister of Pyrodex P from the 80's, price tag 12.99...today's price is a relative bargain).

Regards,
Mike

 

[Billnpatti]

Pete, I have several caplocks, a .50 cal. T/C Hawken, a .50 cal. Hatfield, a .36 cal. Tennessee Valley fullstock, a Pedersoli double barrel 12 ga, a TOW French Fusil, a .54 caliber pistol and a few. others. I have shot Triple 7, Pyrodex and Shockey's Gold in them. All work fine and no particular fouling problems that were any greater than I would get from black powder. I found cleaning in all cases was about the same as with black powder. I use soap and hot water to clean all of my B/P guns. However, I did have some Pyrodex that I had kept for several years (4 or 5) and it did not perform the same as when it was new. It was stored in the original plastic jar that it had come in and had been stored in a cool dry place along with my stock of black powder. Upon reading some literature (I don't remember the exact source but it was one of the black powder magazines) I found that the substitutes had an expected shelf life of about 1 year. Since the stuff is more expensive than real black powder and does not keep like black powder, I quit using it and have used black powder exclusively in all of my guns, not just the flintlocks.

I was fortunate in that I lived only about 45 minutes drive from Friendship and could buy my black powder at the significantly lower prices that were charged at the magazine there. Before moving from Indiana to Texas, I made sure that I had a good stockpile of the Holy Black. I understand that there are many folks who cannot get black powder or if they can, they have to order it and pay the shipping and hazmat fees. For these folks, there is no reasonable choice but to shoot the substitutes if..... they have a caplock. If they have a flintlock.....well, they just have to eat the shipping and hazmat fees if they want to shoot their flintlocks 'cuz the substitutes just don't work reliably in them.

 

[Josh Smith]

The Swiss, right before the widespread use of guncotton, asked themselves why they used sulfur in gunpowder. It's just they always had.

Someone bright enough removed the sulfur and it still fired just fine.

Turns out the sulfur was there to lower the ignition temps for flintlocks, and when caplocks came along, it was held over though not needed.

This new powder was only in use for a few years before giving over to more modern smokeless powders, but it was there.

I still hold that Triple Se7en was PC in the late 19th Century in that part of the world.

Link to the old discussion: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/250978/

Josh

 

[David W.]

The Swiss, right before the widespread use of guncotton, asked themselves why they used sulfur in gunpowder. It's just they always had.

Someone bright enough removed the sulfur and it still fired just fine.

Turns out the sulfur was there to lower the ignition temps for flintlocks, and when caplocks came along, it was held over though not needed.

This new powder was only in use for a few years before giving over to more modern smokeless powders, but it was there.

I still hold that Triple Se7en was PC in the late 19th Century in that part of the world.

Link to the old discussion: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/250978/

Josh

Black powder has been around for centuries and the formula has been constantly tinkered with and adjusted. Do you really think they got a brainy idea all of the sudden and said "hey, we can leave out the sulphur. Why are we still using that same old sulphur/salt peter/charcoal to this day if it could be made better?

 

[Zonie]

"...
I still hold that Triple Se7en was PC in the late 19th Century in that part of the world...."
------------
How do you explain the presence of Potassium Perchlorate in the Triple Se7en produced by the Swiss in the 1800's?

Were the Swiss producing and using this material in the 1800's?

The common way to produce Potassium Perchlorate is with electrolysis and I wasn't aware that this level of understanding existed in the 1800's.

 

[Josh Smith]

"...
I still hold that Triple Se7en was PC in the late 19th Century in that part of the world...."
------------
How do you explain the presence of Potassium Perchlorate in the Triple Se7en produced by the Swiss in the 1800's?

Were the Swiss producing and using this material in the 1800's?

The common way to produce Potassium Perchlorate is with electrolysis and I wasn't aware that this level of understanding existed in the 1800's.

Wow, I must be getting senile.

Pulled up the Triple Se7en MSDS, and forgot they had added perchlorates to it as well as using the potassium nitrate.

OK, it's the Pyrodex of the sulfurless Swiss gunpowder of the late 19th Century :rotf:

How's that? :thumbsup:

Josh

 

[Zonie]

It would be great if Pyrodex didn't have a lot of Potassium Perchlorate in it too. :rotf:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

"...
I still hold that Triple Se7en was PC in the late 19th Century in that part of the world...."
------------
How do you explain the presence of Potassium Perchlorate in the Triple Se7en produced by the Swiss in the 1800's?

Were the Swiss producing and using this material in the 1800's?

The common way to produce Potassium Perchlorate is with electrolysis and I wasn't aware that this level of understanding existed in the 1800's.

Wow, I must be getting senile.

Pulled up the Triple Se7en MSDS, and forgot they had added perchlorates to it as well as using the potassium nitrate.

OK, it's the Pyrodex of the sulfurless Swiss gunpowder of the late 19th Century :rotf:

How's that? :thumbsup:

Josh

Why do you think there's no sulfur in Pyrodex?

Give it up Josh. No sub is PC.

 

[Zonie]

Pyrodex does have sulfur in it. It's the Triple Se7en that leaves it out.

IMO the sulfur is in the powder so it smells good when it is shot.
Of course not everyone agrees with me which is why the nice cloud of smoke with essence of sulfur in it drifting over to the shooter on my left who just sent 6 AK47 shell casings down my shirts collar is my form of revenge.
Not much he can do about it except move to another bench so he can send his shell casings down someone else's shirt. :rotf:

Actually, the sulfur smell is one of the better part of shooting Pyrodex.

 

[Josh Smith]

I meant Pyrodex:Gunpowder as Triple Se7en:sulfurless Swiss gunpowder of the late 19th Century.

In other words, Pyrodex is the same formulation as gunpowder but with potassium perchlorate added.

Triple Se7en is the same as the sulfurless Swiss stuff of the late 19th Century, but with potassium perchlorate added.

It was all tongue-in-cheek. They are not the same, no. But the basic idea has been visited before: Leave the sulfur out.

Right, wrong or indifferent, that's where history has us. :idunno:

Josh

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Herb,
Nice looking Bedford in your photo. A recent build?

Regards,
pletch

 

[David W.]

I meant Pyrodex:Gunpowder as Triple Se7en:sulfurless Swiss gunpowder of the late 19th Century.

In other words, Pyrodex is the same formulation as gunpowder but with potassium perchlorate added.

Triple Se7en is the same as the sulfurless Swiss stuff of the late 19th Century, but with potassium perchlorate added.

It was all tongue-in-cheek. They are not the same, no. But the basic idea has been visited before: Leave the sulfur out.

Right, wrong or indifferent, that's where history has us. :idunno:

Josh

Sorry Josh. Not even close. Go study the formulations of both your subs and report back when you have a leg to stand on. Once again, it it were good to leave sulphur out of BP, it would be that way today. Trust me on that one.

 

[Herb]

I'm glad to hear that you think the substitute powders are every bit as good as real black powder but that has not been my experience with Pyrodex or Black Canyon powder.

Zonie, I never said any such thing. My words are "These powders can work very well, indeed" or something like that. They are different. I reported on how I learned to make them work, just for the learning experience. I never shoot them except in testing, and I have done quite a bit. I probably used 50 pounds of Goex and Swiss powders in the last 10 years and have almost that much on hand now. (Since today is my 78th birthday, I better get at burning this stuff up!)

I think people should get off the fight and realize that no one, least of all me, is trying to get them to switch from using black powder to the alternate powders. But if there are shooters in this country who can't get Goex or Swiss or other black powders because of cost, regulation (maybe they live in an apartment building and cannot have black powder there) or other reasons, honest reporting, including the problems that some of you have, should inform them as to the use of alternate powders. It's easy to say "There is no substitute for black powder" until you can't get it, as perhaps in rural Alaska. Oh, Brown Bear got some OK, but if you think Pyrodex or Triple 7 is expensive, he hinted at what his last batch of black powder cost.

Hogghead- yes, humidity is normally low here, frequently around 10 percent. Thanks for contributing the info about T7 powder clumping. It is just beyond my experience with my 9 year old T7 bottles, 2F and 3F grade, opened that long ago. I don't doubt or argue with you at all, I only report on my experience.

Capper- the primed loads (adding 5 grains of Goex black, 4F,3F,2F, makes no difference) into the bore before the Triple 7 charge) was only with my flintlocks. The Christian Hawken .54 with drum and nipple and tests up to 120 grains of Triple 7 2F (Per Hodgdons printed loads) did not have any black powder boost.

Pletch- Thanks, I built that Thomas Oldham Bedford (copy) in the year 2000, it was serial number 9 for me, I am now nearing 50 (have two in the white that I've been shooting and 4 or 5 more Hawkens I have in various stages of build).

Thanks to all of you for giving your experience with Pyrodex and Triple 7, even if bad. If bad, there may be a way to correct the problem. Look at all the problems people have with regular black powder, and enough of you help out with your experience that they are able to solve their problems.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Herb......I did a lot of shooting today. Weather in Colorado is beautiful right now.
My gun came with a bottle of T7, and I thought i'd bring it along with my BP to test it out. I've learned a few things about using subs in a caplock, and I wanted to see how the T7 would perform.

I'll make it short. Real short. 20 shots of T7 with loads from 50-90 gr. No misfires, delays, and very accurate. 3" groups @ 100 yds offhand. No complaints from me. Dead elk.

 

[1sgt]

Happy Birthday Herb. We still have ice and snow here in Ohio but it did get to 35 today so I shot 40 rounds from my .32 cal Crockett pistol. 12 gr of Pyrodex P for 20 rounds and Goex 3f for the other 20, alternating from one to the other. No swabing between shots. No mis-fires. I like T7 and shoot it in some of my .45 & .50 cal rifles.

 

[Josh Smith]

I meant Pyrodex:Gunpowder as Triple Se7en:sulfurless Swiss gunpowder of the late 19th Century.

In other words, Pyrodex is the same formulation as gunpowder but with potassium perchlorate added.

Triple Se7en is the same as the sulfurless Swiss stuff of the late 19th Century, but with potassium perchlorate added.

It was all tongue-in-cheek. They are not the same, no. But the basic idea has been visited before: Leave the sulfur out.

Right, wrong or indifferent, that's where history has us. :idunno:

Josh

Sorry Josh. Not even close. Go study the formulations of both your subs and report back when you have a leg to stand on. Once again, it it were good to leave sulphur out of BP, it would be that way today. Trust me on that one.

Looks pretty much the same to me, with the addition of potassium perchlorate in the T7.

Mods: I hope the recipes are sufficiently edited here; we all know what goes into gunpowder, but not in what quantities.

Josh