Trying to understand this “short arbor” on Uberti revolvers

[M. De Land]

I stand corrected. The core of it stands, no one had made open top in 50+ years so there was not even an option for that.

Now if Keith had been a gun builder, he could have taken an old open top and built it up. But he would have been working with materials dating back to the 1870 era.

When Keith started his work Model T was no longer made either. Nor steam tractors. Shoot, someone figured out the Wrights had put the tail on the wrong end of the aircraft by then.

Keith did not decide diddly, he took what was being made and the adventure began.

Its simply an absurd statement showing how desperate FC is and reflects horribly on his thought process (well text process, clearly no thought there)

Kieth was bursting cylinders with .45 Colts which is why he preferred .44 special developed in 1907 with more metal left in the chamber walls.

 

[M. De Land]

I'm thinking the diploma in Gumballology MDL has from French Colonial University isn't a reflection of intelligence.

Oh Dicky, don't give yourself and anurizim trying to "think" about anything in regards to gun repair. Your working a dry hole Dicky my ladd !
There's still hope for Yager and 45-D knows the truth but is just bull headed !

 

[French Colonial]

Kieth was bursting cylinders with .45 Colts which is why he preferred .44 special developed in 1907 with more metal left in the chamber walls.

Thin chamber walls and balloon head cases are the only reasons we did not end up with a Kieth 45 magnum

 

[Trev]

Yep, and if the cyl tried to go "past" the hand, the SAME THING WOULD KEEP IT FROM DOING SO !!

MIKE

Not disagreeing exactly, as the spring does keep the hand in full contact and that tends to keep hand and cylinder in time with each other; but I do wonder what could be causing the cylinder to outpace the hand, if it did. It looks to me like if only the hand is pushing the cylinder, then the speed of the cylinder could never be faster than the speed at which the hand is pushing. I can see how it could run past the hand if the hand disengaged, only because the hand is slowing or stopped, but I don't see that the hand can be slowing movement that it is the only engine of? is there some other source of rotation that I'm not seeing?

And related, the bolt on my Remington replica rises sooner than I think it should, about halfway between slots; is that a problem that I should correct and if so how?

 

[D Yager]

Not disagreeing exactly, as the spring does keep the hand in full contact and that tends to keep hand and cylinder in time with each other; but I do wonder what could be causing the cylinder to outpace the hand, if it did. It looks to me like if only the hand is pushing the cylinder, then the speed of the cylinder could never be faster than the speed at which the hand is pushing. I can see how it could run past the hand if the hand disengaged, only because the hand is slowing or stopped, but I don't see that the hand can be slowing movement that it is the only engine of? is there some other source of rotation that I'm not seeing?

And related, the bolt on my Remington replica rises sooner than I think it should, about halfway between slots; is that a problem that I should correct and if so how?

What is happening to the cylinder is flywheel effect, once the cylinder is moving it wants to continue to move. The spring tension on the hand keeps the hand in contact with the ratchet acting as braking force to slow the cylinder down...regardless of what Mr. Deland rants about... with a weak hand spring it can and does over run the tip of the hand and skip past the locking notches for the bolt. As to the Remmie bolt rise there's a couple of things that can be done. Replace and refit the bolt, or one can remove some metal from the area behind the bolt head. The idea is to move the left bolt leg closer to the hammer cam. This will allow pick up to begin a little sooner and should make the bolt drop a little later. It depends on whether or not the left bolt leg has been shortened. Another possibility is the spring tension on the bolt leg is not quite where it needs to be. You can try a slight bend to spread the two bolt legs apart increasing the tension on the left leg. This will make it follow the hammer cam more closely. I would try the bend first. Leaving it as is will not hurt much but you will have the Ruger style beauty ring on the cylinder.

 

[Trev]

Oh it's had ring for twenty plus years, I never gave it any thought until I started frequenting this forum with all the talk about such things. It's set however the factory set it, I bought in new in '01 and shot it a lot for a few years and just occasionally the last few.

 

[45D]

The tension at the top of the stroke is no greater than at the bottom and why would it be . . .

Because the slot has a forward rake but nose of the hand is going vertical. The attached spring is being compressed because of the closing angle.
There's quite a bit of tension against the ratchet at all times. The spring compression from cylinder rotation (1/2 cock) is considerable.

It's clear considerable movement of the hand happens as the cylinder is rotated. With added tension as the cycle continues the cylinder would have to gain quite a bit of energy to overcome the hand.
This is why with the added weight of ammo on board, it makes it more difficult to manage as the cylinder gets more and more "out of ballance" with each shot fired.
Therefore, the "throw-by" test is done with 2 dummy cartridges or lead slugs to "off balance" the cylinder. The hand spring tension should be enough to not allow throw-by. It's described on page 226 of the Kuhnhausen book.

Mike

 

[45D]

Not disagreeing exactly, as the spring does keep the hand in full contact and that tends to keep hand and cylinder in time with each other; but I do wonder what could be causing the cylinder to outpace the hand, if it did. It looks to me like if only the hand is pushing the cylinder, then the speed of the cylinder could never be faster than the speed at which the hand is pushing. I can see how it could run past the hand if the hand disengaged, only because the hand is slowing or stopped, but I don't see that the hand can be slowing movement that it is the only engine of? is there some other source of rotation that I'm not seeing?

And related, the bolt on my Remington replica rises sooner than I think it should, about halfway between slots; is that a problem that I should correct and if so how?

See my post above.

 

[Trev]

See my post above.

I see what you are saying and the validity of momentum and inertia, and that the spring tension helps keep that under control, I probably wouldn't call it a braking action, but that gets into perspective and semantics. If the bolt spring is removed or broken will the hand stop the cylinder when it stops?
Will a replacement hand spring improve the action if the existing spring is not broken?

 

[45D]

I see what you are saying and the validity of momentum and inertia, and that the spring tension helps keep that under control, I probably wouldn't call it a braking action, but that gets into perspective and semantics.

Well, there's a difference in "breaking" and "stop". If you're driving and going downhill you usually use "breaking action" to maintain a certain speed or not go over a certain speed.

If the bolt spring is removed or broken will the hand stop the cylinder when it stops?
Will a replacement hand spring improve the action if the existing spring is not broken?

Well, of course it would in as much as freewheeling in half cock. Remember my post about the "clicking" sound made by the hand? The cylinder rotates fewer times WITH the hand spring than without. Therefore, it has a "breaking" or "controlling" action. Compared to the "instantaneous" drop of the bolt onto the cylinder just one bolt width before the locking notch is evidence of that control . . . otherwise, "throw-by" will be a problem. And it's been that way with Colt type actions for the last 200 years.
Obviously the cylinder "stops" because of "lockup" by the bolt (as designed), not the "dragging of".

Mike

 

[Trev]

I'll probably have to experiment making a spring just see this happen, I think someone mentioned a bobby pin.

 

[D Yager]

A bobby pin won't work very well. I think the best bet is to set it up with a Ruger type hand spring and plunger. It will last half of forever.

 

[M. De Land]

Because the slot has a forward rake but nose of the hand is going vertical. The attached spring is being compressed because of the closing angle.
There's quite a bit of tension against the ratchet at all times. The spring compression from cylinder rotation (1/2 cock) is considerable.

View attachment 378854

View attachment 378855

It's clear considerable movement of the hand happens as the cylinder is rotated. With added tension as the cycle continues the cylinder would have to gain quite a bit of energy to overcome the hand.
This is why with the added weight of ammo on board, it makes it more difficult to manage as the cylinder gets more and more "out of ballance" with each shot fired.
Therefore, the "throw-by" test is done with 2 dummy cartridges or lead slugs to "off balance" the cylinder. The hand spring tension should be enough to not allow throw-by. It's described on page 226 of the Kuhnhausen book.

Mike

Remove the cylinder and push on the hand testing spring to full compression tension with a pencil at the at half cock and then again at full cock. You won't be able to tell any difference in full compression spring tension on the hand . It wouldn't matter if you did as far as slowing down the cylinder rotation from the hand push.

 

[M. De Land]

Thin chamber walls and balloon head cases are the only reasons we did not end up with a Kieth 45 magnum

Balloon head cases were weaker than solid head but did hold a good deal more black powder. That's how they were able to get the original load of 40 grains of 2F.

 

[M. De Land]

Not disagreeing exactly, as the spring does keep the hand in full contact and that tends to keep hand and cylinder in time with each other; but I do wonder what could be causing the cylinder to outpace the hand, if it did. It looks to me like if only the hand is pushing the cylinder, then the speed of the cylinder could never be faster than the speed at which the hand is pushing. I can see how it could run past the hand if the hand disengaged, only because the hand is slowing or stopped, but I don't see that the hand can be slowing movement that it is the only engine of? is there some other source of rotation that I'm not seeing?

And related, the bolt on my Remington replica rises sooner than I think it should, about halfway between slots; is that a problem that I should correct and if so how?

You've got it right !

 

[M. De Land]

What is happening to the cylinder is flywheel effect, once the cylinder is moving it wants to continue to move. The spring tension on the hand keeps the hand in contact with the ratchet acting as braking force to slow the cylinder down...regardless of what Mr. Deland rants about... with a weak hand spring it can and does over run the tip of the hand and skip past the locking notches for the bolt. As to the Remmie bolt rise there's a couple of things that can be done. Replace and refit the bolt, or one can remove some metal from the area behind the bolt head. The idea is to move the left bolt leg closer to the hammer cam. This will allow pick up to begin a little sooner and should make the bolt drop a little later. It depends on whether or not the left bolt leg has been shortened. Another possibility is the spring tension on the bolt leg is not quite where it needs to be. You can try a slight bend to spread the two bolt legs apart increasing the tension on the left leg. This will make it follow the hammer cam more closely. I would try the bend first. Leaving it as is will not hurt much but you will have the Ruger style beauty ring on the cylinder.

The bolt drop is the only dead stop to cylinder rotation after it's drop and it's spring tension has slowed it into lock up. Early drop and more braking action into lock up.
Bolts should have their heads polished a bit only where they contact the cylinder so they do not gall but as long as they make a clean lift without catching the rear of the bolt notch edge, the sooner they drop the better as far as braking action into lock up. Purist think this is a sure sign of distress but it actually serves a positive function as far as the guns sake.
The hand has played absolutely no part in slowing or stopping cylinder rotation. into bolt drop and lock up. It is the sole power source of cylinder rotation ever pushing it into lock up !

 

[45D]

Remove the cylinder and push on the hand testing spring to full compression tension with a pencil at the at half cock and then again at full cock. You won't be able to tell any difference in full compression spring tension on the hand . It wouldn't matter if you did as far as slowing down the cylinder rotation from the hand push.

1 -I apologize, i don't have a calibrated pencil to test with. The point is, a WEAK hand spring will allow throw-by, a heavy spring won't.
2- If throw-by is a problem, and you fix it as instructed by a- Colt manual instructions, b- a tuner that has 65 +yrs experience that was trained by Colt or c- use Jerry Kuhnhausen's book describing the fix . . . it will be a correct fix because all 3 fixes ARE the Colt fix!!! It's always worked for me, my customers are happy, their cylinders don't have drag lines on them and the revolvers work as designed, not like a "shade tree mechanic" "figured sumptin out" that could work sorta".

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

I see what you are saying and the validity of momentum and inertia, and that the spring tension helps keep that under control, I probably wouldn't call it a braking action, but that gets into perspective and semantics. If the bolt spring is removed or broken will the hand stop the cylinder when it stops?
Will a replacement hand spring improve the action if the existing spring is not broken?

It's only job is to maintain the hands contact with the ratchet tooth. If it does so reliably it cannot be made better by changing. I've replaced the carbon steel hand spring with one made of stainless steel spring stock and they are at least as reliable as a coil spring and detent.

 

[M. De Land]

1 -I apologize, i don't have a calibrated pencil to test with. The point is, a WEAK hand spring will allow throw-by, a heavy spring won't.
2- If throw-by is a problem, and you fix it as instructed by a- Colt manual instructions, b- a tuner that has 65 +yrs experience that was trained by Colt or c- use Jerry Kuhnhausen's book describing the fix . . . it will be a correct fix because all 3 fixes ARE the Colt fix!!! It's always worked for me, my customers are happy, their cylinders don't have drag lines on them and the revolvers work as designed, not like a "shade tree mechanic" "figured sumptin out" that could work sorta".

Mike

That kind of closed minded absolutism is why you stay stuck in your thinking on so many of these topics !

 

[45D]

That kind of closed minded absolutism is why you stay stuck in your thinking on so many of these topics !

If fixing things the RIGHT way is "closed minded", that's fine with me.
And actually, if you understand the CORRECT "repair" and "tune", it DOES allow you to modify setups for better performance.
I replace the flat springs with coil and coil /torsion springs. In the case of the Remington, the main spring can be converted as well (the Colt actions retain the flat main). The most important part though is, the revolvers FEEL like a tuned Colt or Remington or Ruger. The spring rates are the same, the "clicks" happen at the right time, tuning/modifying the action parts for longevity AND speed (some even more so).
Side by side they look like a factory revolver ( except for the pretty screws!!) but mine run like a total beast. That's what folks want and that's what i do.

Mike