Is there any tuning that can be done on a single action 1851 Navy to make it a more reliable and better pistol for cowboy action style shooting. I'm not a competitor, but I do like to shoot alot, and love the feel of a smooth action, just not sure where to start to get there. Thanks guys
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Tuning cap and balls for Cowboy action style shooting?
- Thread starter Spots
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Spots said:
If you have to ask, get professional help.
If they smooth it by excessively lightening the springs they are doing you no favor.
If you insist on doing it yourself then get this. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=25724/Product/THE-COLT-SINGLE-ACTION-REVOLVERS-A-SHOP-MANUAL
And a bunch of tools and stones. You will need specialty stones for the advance hand gallery. Brownells sells them.
Dan
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I hate that phrase/answer. All experts started as beginners at some point. I'm just looking for advice since there is no one in my area who tunes single actions that I can find. I've always been a hands on kinda guy. The link for the manual will be a big help, thats what I've been looking for. I knew about the heavy springs being required to make the caps fire with reliability. Thanks for the help and links :grin:
There's lots that can be done, from basic smoothing and replacing nipples to a full blown Manhattan modification.
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_One.pdf
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_Two.pdf
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Uberti_Open_Top_Revolvers_Part_1.pdf
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_One.pdf
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_Two.pdf
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Uberti_Open_Top_Revolvers_Part_1.pdf
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CrossdrawHero
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Burrs and drag lines need to be attended to. Polished riding edges for the internal parts are needed for smooth action.
Do you have a drag line on your cylinder? Any gouges in the cylinder lock slots? How would you describe the trigger break on your gun?
Do you have a drag line on your cylinder? Any gouges in the cylinder lock slots? How would you describe the trigger break on your gun?
zimmerstutzen
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There are guys who tweak, etc and some who really tune. The know how often associated with tuning varies depending on what the smith knows. Yes some guys just stone a few things and put in stronger springs. I knew a gunsmith from Bucks County PA, who tuned cartridge revolvers for sillywet shooters. There was far more to what he did than just a little stoning and springs. He had me shooting a bull barrel single action 44 mag and hitting claybirds at 100yds. The gun was the smoothest piece of machinery I have ever handled. What a particular gun needs varies from gun to gun and between manufacturers.
I can't afford the type of tuning that man did. But I got to shoot two of his customers' guns. I can say they were far smoother than any other gun I ever handled.
I can't afford the type of tuning that man did. But I got to shoot two of his customers' guns. I can say they were far smoother than any other gun I ever handled.
Polishing and smoothing etc etc....
The problem arises when the wrong place is smoothed and the gun stops working properly.
Some edges have to stay sharp and if rounded/polished improperly the part is junk or needs welding/shaping/hardening.
If the lock bolt drops late due to lightening the spring the revolver can skip the notch if cocked fast and may or may not fire with chamber misaligned with the forcing cone.
Even if it does not skip the late drop can pean the lock bolt cuts in the cyl till it will not lock properly. If its too early it drags on the cylinder before the lead in cut. It SHOULD drop right at the beginning of the lead in and the lock bolt needs to be properly contoured, if not it will give a false impression of where it falling on the cylinder. The thing will then be adjusted and an error created that may require a new part to correct.
The depth of case on some Italian guns is such that doing a trigger job may remove the case on the hammer. Polishing the lock bolt cam may do the same thing. So the person doing this needs to have enough experience to deal with this. Its possible the hammer, for example, might be too soft for its job as it comes.
I learned most of this the hard way working on my own guns before doing them for other people.
What needs to be remembered is this is a firearm, not a toy and can be made unsafe very easily. The full cock notch on the SA Colt action is tiny and its take very little to make one unsafe and if the hammer/trigger is soft then they will become unsafe with shooting in a short time if used much. If the trigger pull is made to light or has no "break" or the full cock notch is made too shallow then the trigger can catch the 1/2 or 1/4 cock and bend or break. I had this happen with one I did for a famous musician with more trigger finger control than I. Had to fix it again...
Unsafe guns can kill or injure.
This is why I mentioned professional help.
It beats shooting a hole in the overhead at a range or being in the hospital with a hole in your leg. Or worse.
Dan
The problem arises when the wrong place is smoothed and the gun stops working properly.
Some edges have to stay sharp and if rounded/polished improperly the part is junk or needs welding/shaping/hardening.
If the lock bolt drops late due to lightening the spring the revolver can skip the notch if cocked fast and may or may not fire with chamber misaligned with the forcing cone.
Even if it does not skip the late drop can pean the lock bolt cuts in the cyl till it will not lock properly. If its too early it drags on the cylinder before the lead in cut. It SHOULD drop right at the beginning of the lead in and the lock bolt needs to be properly contoured, if not it will give a false impression of where it falling on the cylinder. The thing will then be adjusted and an error created that may require a new part to correct.
The depth of case on some Italian guns is such that doing a trigger job may remove the case on the hammer. Polishing the lock bolt cam may do the same thing. So the person doing this needs to have enough experience to deal with this. Its possible the hammer, for example, might be too soft for its job as it comes.
I learned most of this the hard way working on my own guns before doing them for other people.
What needs to be remembered is this is a firearm, not a toy and can be made unsafe very easily. The full cock notch on the SA Colt action is tiny and its take very little to make one unsafe and if the hammer/trigger is soft then they will become unsafe with shooting in a short time if used much. If the trigger pull is made to light or has no "break" or the full cock notch is made too shallow then the trigger can catch the 1/2 or 1/4 cock and bend or break. I had this happen with one I did for a famous musician with more trigger finger control than I. Had to fix it again...
Unsafe guns can kill or injure.
This is why I mentioned professional help.
It beats shooting a hole in the overhead at a range or being in the hospital with a hole in your leg. Or worse.
Dan
zimmerstutzen
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It was almost 30 years ago. As I recall his first name was Paul. But it has been so long, I could have that wrong. Because I was normally shooting a flinter at the range he just called me "Dan'l" and because of his revolvers I called him "Tex" We would run into each other at the Nockamixon SGL range every few weeks during the summer.
His customers actually paid him to go to the factories and pick through guns to select the ones he would tune. I remember he said he went to Virginia to the Interarms plant to pick out a few Virginia Dragoons. He said he picked through about a hundred to get the three he selected for his customers. To pay his kind of work, the folks must have been National ranked shooters. He tested chamber alignment etc.
His customers actually paid him to go to the factories and pick through guns to select the ones he would tune. I remember he said he went to Virginia to the Interarms plant to pick out a few Virginia Dragoons. He said he picked through about a hundred to get the three he selected for his customers. To pay his kind of work, the folks must have been National ranked shooters. He tested chamber alignment etc.
Grizzled Roberts
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Back when I used to shoot cowboy action matches I used a brace of 1858 Remington's I ordered from Cabellas. Later I obtained a couple of Ruger cowboy pistols in 45 colt. The 58s shot better than the Rugers so I switched back. In Cowboy shooting you use both pistols in each stage ( most of the time ) It is normal to shoot six to eight stages a day. After each stage I would take the pistols apart and wipe the fouling off the surfaces and grease the guide rod and loading arm with cheap axle grease. This does not take long with a Remington. A little more work than the Rugers but the 58 shot better. Right out of the box no modifications. The Rugers are gone but I still have the Remingtons!
zimmerstutzen
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I just got a Remmie repro from Cabelas and the quality out of the box was certainly impressive.
Check with VTI gun parts and see if they have some better springs for your revolver, it's a good place to start plus they have diagrams of most models; http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/
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By 1851 Navy- I assume you are talking about a Colt. The mechanism is pretty much the same as the Colt Peacemaker so a lot of the material in books. etc on the Peacemaker can be applied to the percussion gun. On the Peacemaker you can look between the frame and see the bolt drop but on the 1851 you need to slip in a sheet of paper and feel for the drop. On some replicas the hand is a lot more narrow than the slot it slides up and down and a tighter fitting hand may be an improvement.
Sometimes you can screw things up by trying to improve them. Unless there is a problem of some sort maybe leave well enough alone.
Personally I think the sights are the biggest drawback on a 1851 (and I'm an 1851 shooter). A blade front sight dovetailed in place or soft soldered (like the Peacemaker) will improve your shooting a lot. Some original guns had this done so it is PC.
Sometimes you can screw things up by trying to improve them. Unless there is a problem of some sort maybe leave well enough alone.
Personally I think the sights are the biggest drawback on a 1851 (and I'm an 1851 shooter). A blade front sight dovetailed in place or soft soldered (like the Peacemaker) will improve your shooting a lot. Some original guns had this done so it is PC.
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Bill: Thank you so much for those Links. I printed those in case I need them one day. VERY useful information!! Thanks again. :hatsoff:
Crockett: Could not agree with you more ref the Colts (or clones). I own an 1860 Army and an 1851 Navy. I had a gunsmith do three things to both of mine. 1) Trigger job. 2) Eleven degree cut on the forcing cone. 3) A taller front sight dove-tailed in. I could not believe the improvement in accuracy. The pistols now shoot where you point them. And you're right. That taller front sight makes ALL the difference on the Colts.
The problem was, and still is, that no one makes an authentic looking, taller front sight for these Colts. I got mine from Kenny Howell (from Howell Conversions. He puts these taller front sights on all the conversions he does. But, it took me a YEAR to get just two front sights.
You would think that with all the Colt clones out there someone would come up with an after-market taller front sight? I've also heard that experienced single action gunsmiths have long wait list to do any custom work. Anyway, thanks for this Thread. Glad I noticed it. Rick. :thumbsup:
Crockett: Could not agree with you more ref the Colts (or clones). I own an 1860 Army and an 1851 Navy. I had a gunsmith do three things to both of mine. 1) Trigger job. 2) Eleven degree cut on the forcing cone. 3) A taller front sight dove-tailed in. I could not believe the improvement in accuracy. The pistols now shoot where you point them. And you're right. That taller front sight makes ALL the difference on the Colts.
The problem was, and still is, that no one makes an authentic looking, taller front sight for these Colts. I got mine from Kenny Howell (from Howell Conversions. He puts these taller front sights on all the conversions he does. But, it took me a YEAR to get just two front sights.
You would think that with all the Colt clones out there someone would come up with an after-market taller front sight? I've also heard that experienced single action gunsmiths have long wait list to do any custom work. Anyway, thanks for this Thread. Glad I noticed it. Rick. :thumbsup:
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