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Upgrade Zouave rear sight

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ChairForce1

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I have a Zouave remake (barrel stamped Nurmrich Arms). The rear sight appears to be held in place by a strange screw (2 holes instead of a slot or phillips head). I'm trying to determine if it's feasible to replace it with a longer range sight (say 300+ yards).

Is upgrading the rear sight possible? Where can I find "better than stock" replacements for it? Most of the things I see are tang sights, but nothing seems to be compatible.
 
Have you checked the on-line catalogs for Track of the Wolf, and Dixie? Have you called Brownell's to see what they would recommend, and what they have?

I am not clear if you are wanting a new, tang mounted rear sight, or something to screw into the barrel using the existing holes for the current rear sight. The replica Zuaves were not intended for long range shooting, so I have to question your idea of trying to use that gun to shoot out to 300 yds.

There are "step" sights, with folding leaves, that you might be able to use to replace that current rear sight. I believe a dovetail slot would need to be cut into the barrel to mount them, however.
 
Paul; You said
"The replica Zuaves were not intended for long range shooting"

I'm looking at one now with the thought of buying it for long range shooting. Please explain? By the way. It's a 58 cal.
ob
 
there is a tool made for the 2 hole screw go to S & S firearms site. they have them. also they sell a skirmishing L leaf that is blank you can cut you own notchs or drill peep holes. Thust me buy 2 of them. drill the first one were you cal. you need it. use J B weld to fill in the holes when they are wrong then re drill until you get it right then copy the holes onto the spare leaf. if using a notch not much of a problem
 
The Zuave replicas were made to be used for re-enacting Civil War Battles. They have round barrels, and the Barrel walls are pretty thin. This is not like an Octagon Barrel chambered for the .58 Cal. Round, where the breech may be as large as 1 1/8" across the flats, and are built to withstand the kind of pressure heavy loads, needed for long range shooting, can produce in the barrel.

My old Hodgdon Reloading Manual #39, lists RB loads For the gun topping at 70 grains of FFg powder and 1054 Fps. MV. SUBSEQUENT data from members here indicate that IN STRONGER BARRELS, you can use loads up to 110 grains . I HAVE SINCE SEEN MUCH HEAVIER CHARGES used in strong, Octagon Barreled rifles for hunting big game in Africa.

But these guns are not the Zuave Replicas sold by firms back in the 1950s and 1960s. Compared to the heavier barreled guns, the Zuave is rather light weight, and the recoil of even the 70 grains loads can be rough to take, simply because of the shape of the stock, and the steel buttplate.

So, before looking to change the sights to make this a " Long range " shooter, shoot the gun some with the existing sights and loads and find out what it can and cannot do. Any gun can lob balls or bullets onto distant targets, but doing so with any kind of consistent accuracy is expecting a lot.

The Zuave was used shooting a minie Ball- a short, hollow based bullet weighing between 315 grains, and 570 grains, depending on the length of the bullet chosen. That is substantially more than the weight of the .58 cal. Round Ball- at between 260 and 280 grains, depending on size chosen for a given gun's bore diameter.

I have watched competent match shooters shoot these guns out to 100 yds. I have watched Stake cutting shoots, where teams of riflemen competed to see which team could cut down a 2 x 10" plank using those minie balls, the fastest. The stakes were placed at about 50 feet for this competition, so that the audience behind the shooters had some chance of seeing the hits. I have followed the advice given hear, and elsewhere about using a Bullet sizing die to size the minie ball to within .001" of the bored diameter of the gun for best accuracy, and why to reduce the diameter of the plug for the casting mold so that you get a wider "skirt" on the hollow base, and a resulting heavier minie ball, so that heavier loads can be shot, without blowing out the skirt. The typical powder charge used for live fire shooting by re-enactors is 60 grains of FFg Goex Black powder. That is a pretty light load for that caliber. You can put a minie ball on a man sized silhouette target out at 100 yds, with it, but the drop in trajectory makes doing the same thing at 200 yds, much more difficult.

I don't have any experience with these guns being used for target shooting out at 300 yds, either witnessing it, or hearing about it. I therefore won't speculate about how its done, if its done, and if so, what kind of loads are used. Historically, the original rifles were not expected to be used to shoot at the enemy at 300 yds. or further.

Historically, The 1863 Springfield in .58 was a stronger-built rifle, and could handle heavier charges, than the Zuave.
 
paulvallandigham said:
The Zuave replicas were made to be used for re-enacting Civil War Battles. They have round barrels, and the Barrel walls are pretty thin. This is not like an Octagon Barrel chambered for the .58 Cal. Round, where the breech may be as large as 1 1/8" across the flats, and are built to withstand the kind of pressure heavy loads, needed for long range shooting, can produce in the barrel.

My old Hodgdon Reloading Manual #39, lists RB loads For the gun topping at 70 grains of FFg powder and 1054 Fps. MV. SUBSEQUENT data from members here indicate that IN STRONGER BARRELS, you can use loads up to 110 grains . I HAVE SINCE SEEN MUCH HEAVIER CHARGES used in strong, Octagon Barreled rifles for hunting big game in Africa.

But these guns are not the Zuave Replicas sold by firms back in the 1950s and 1960s. Compared to the heavier barreled guns, the Zuave is rather light weight, and the recoil of even the 70 grains loads can be rough to take, simply because of the shape of the stock, and the steel buttplate.

So, before looking to change the sights to make this a " Long range " shooter, shoot the gun some with the existing sights and loads and find out what it can and cannot do. Any gun can lob balls or bullets onto distant targets, but doing so with any kind of consistent accuracy is expecting a lot.

The Zuave was used shooting a minie Ball- a short, hollow based bullet weighing between 315 grains, and 570 grains, depending on the length of the bullet chosen. That is substantially more than the weight of the .58 cal. Round Ball- at between 260 and 280 grains, depending on size chosen for a given gun's bore diameter.

I have watched competent match shooters shoot these guns out to 100 yds. I have watched Stake cutting shoots, where teams of riflemen competed to see which team could cut down a 2 x 10" plank using those minie balls, the fastest. The stakes were placed at about 50 feet for this competition, so that the audience behind the shooters had some chance of seeing the hits. I have followed the advice given hear, and elsewhere about using a Bullet sizing die to size the minie ball to within .001" of the bored diameter of the gun for best accuracy, and why to reduce the diameter of the plug for the casting mold so that you get a wider "skirt" on the hollow base, and a resulting heavier minie ball, so that heavier loads can be shot, without blowing out the skirt. The typical powder charge used for live fire shooting by re-enactors is 60 grains of FFg Goex Black powder. That is a pretty light load for that caliber. You can put a minie ball on a man sized silhouette target out at 100 yds, with it, but the drop in trajectory makes doing the same thing at 200 yds, much more difficult.

I don't have any experience with these guns being used for target shooting out at 300 yds, either witnessing it, or hearing about it. I therefore won't speculate about how its done, if its done, and if so, what kind of loads are used. Historically, the original rifles were not expected to be used to shoot at the enemy at 300 yds. or further.

Historically, The 1863 Springfield in .58 was a stronger-built rifle, and could handle heavier charges, than the Zuave.

Good info. Thank you. I think I'm just gonna get a trap door 45/70 with a good tang sight to satisfy my long range bp desires. I'll leave my sub 100 yard shooting for my Zouave (I can hit a dinner plate with a .562 ball 4/5 of the time all day long).

Yes, I did say I was going to get a bpcr...sue me :grin:
 
What is taking you so long?? :grin: :idunno: I thought everyone owned a Springfield Trapdoor. :shocked2: :wink: Mine doesn't have a tang sight, but that Buffington Rear Sight can do it all. :hmm: :thumbsup:
 
paulvallandigham said:
What is taking you so long?? :grin: :idunno: I thought everyone owned a Springfield Trapdoor. :shocked2: :wink: Mine doesn't have a tang sight, but that Buffington Rear Sight can do it all. :hmm: :thumbsup:

Fiance says "Buy it for yourself or I'll buy it for you". Granted, saying that alone makes her a keeper...I'm just calling her bluff first. That and we're getting married in July 2010 so money has to go to that first.
 
I have a Zoli Zouave .58 cal I've been shooting 60 gr's of FFg behind a 515 gr mini ball. This rifle is about 25 plus years old, the barrel mikes at .165 wall that's almost 3/16 of a inch is this a thin wall barrel?
My rear sight is of the multiple leaf type also held on with a screw using two holes.
378903457.jpg
 
Congratulations. Unless you buy one of the newer " replica " Springfield Trapdoors, the original rifles have barrels that have bores with diameters all over the place. Its difficult to measure the bore diameter because of the 3 groove rifling, too, unless you have a barrel mike.

Best Wishes to both you and your fiance. I wish you both many happy years together. Get her involved in shooting, and buy her the Best Gun you can afford, that fits her- not you. She will never complain about you buying another gun!

Speaking from personal experience, there is just about nothing nicer than snuggling with the missus in a dead fall tree, waiting for daylight on opening day of deer season. Works pretty darn good in Goose pits, and Duck blinds, too. :hatsoff:
 
This is my other shooter BP only. H&R Officers model the 100 year anniversary model.

370401695.jpg
 
Paul gave a well thought out post on the reasons for not shooting the Zouave at long range but there are several problems there. Please read on.

The biggest problem with the Zouave or any other military rifle or rifle musket is not the barrel thickness, the .58 caliber barrels on the repop M1863 Remington (so-called "Zouave") and all other reproductions like the English P53 Enfield, US M1861, the M1863 and the US M1855 are slightly thicker than the originals so it is plenty heavy to do the job it was designed to do. The rifles and rifle muskets of the mid-19th Century were mostly designed to fire a Minié ball. This was a slightly undersized hollow based bullet with skirts that expanded with powder pressure to engage the rifling when fired. These skirts were relatively fragile and WILL be blown out on exiting the bore if the powder charge was too large, thus destroying accuracy. Charges were carefully developed to give good accuracy and man-killing/maiming power - up to 1,000 yards. This does not mean that an individual can consistently aim at something at 1,000 yards and be guaranteed of a killing hit but it does mean that the bullet/powder combination are capable of that with training and practice when firing at a target the size of a company front and should be able to consistently make hits on a target the size of a man on a horse.

Now, the sights for the M1863 are good enough to make consistent hits on a pie plate or smaller target at 300 yards using the standard load of a 500 grain bullet and 60 grains of powder. There are certainly MANY shooters that can and do do it. US Government tests during the development of the .58 caliber rifle musket were very precise and showed that these actions were possible. You can see a reprint of these tests in "The Rifled Musket" by Claude E. Fuller. These tests were exhaustive and showed bullet speed at various ranges as well as penetration ability at the equivalent ranges.

Remember, do not push the powder load much beyond 60 grains. Some feel the need for more "power" and a "flatter trajectory" but it is not necessary - a soft lead bullet weighing in the neighborhood of 500 grains moving at 1,000 feet per second will put down any game on the North American continent and if your sights are correctly regulated they will work fine. You must also practice and develop the best load. And shoot a lot - do your part, the gun will do it's. If you want to see astonishingly accurate shooting with a .58 caliber gun, attend an N-SSA shoot and you will be a believer. Talk to the shooters, many of whom are also hunters and use their experience on targets to harvest white tails, bear and hogs and, on some occasions, truly dangerous game.

The Trapdoor Springfield was a good gun with a good cartridge but it is no more accurate over iron sights than a rifled musket. It's only advantage is in speed of reloading.
 
One thing I almost forgot, slug your bore and pick a bullet of the proper diameter - .002 diameter smaller than your bore is the most often recommended. And if your bore is well rifled and your load development is properly done, you will be able to make the long range shots with practice.
 
paulvallandigham said:
Congratulations. Unless you buy one of the newer " replica " Springfield Trapdoors, the original rifles have barrels that have bores with diameters all over the place. Its difficult to measure the bore diameter because of the 3 groove rifling, too, unless you have a barrel mike.

Best Wishes to both you and your fiance. I wish you both many happy years together. Get her involved in shooting, and buy her the Best Gun you can afford, that fits her- not you. She will never complain about you buying another gun!

Speaking from personal experience, there is just about nothing nicer than snuggling with the missus in a dead fall tree, waiting for daylight on opening day of deer season. Works pretty darn good in Goose pits, and Duck blinds, too. :hatsoff:

She doesn't complain about guns..in fact, she loves shooting my .58 zouave. I'm gonna go with a replica trapdoor with a nice tang sight (probably).
 
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Something else to consider is the rate of twist. I have seen numerous posts stating that some of the older Zoli Zouaves have a 1:72" twist, which is more for round ball than conical. (One day I will haul out my circa 1972 Zouave and check it.) It seems to be the case since many shooters report better results with the round ball than Minie. I will say that the 505 grain Minie over 65 grains FFg can leave some bruises shooting in a T shirt. Believe that is close to the service load. I would like to replace the rear sight, too, since mine shoots nowhere near point of aim. You might order a replacement rear and then take it apart or fabricate a similar base upon which to mount a different kind of sight. The triggers on these are another matter, altogether. Not exactly match.
 
RedFeather said:
Something else to consider is the rate of twist. I have seen numerous posts stating that some of the older Zoli Zouaves have a 1:72" twist, which is more for round ball than conical. (One day I will haul out my circa 1972 Zouave and check it.) It seems to be the case since many shooters report better results with the round ball than Minie. I will say that the 505 grain Minie over 65 grains FFg can leave some bruises shooting in a T shirt. Believe that is close to the service load. I would like to replace the rear sight, too, since mine shoots nowhere near point of aim. You might order a replacement rear and then take it apart or fabricate a similar base upon which to mount a different kind of sight. The triggers on these are another matter, altogether. Not exactly match.

I wish I knew my twist rate. All I know is the barrel is stamped "Nurmrich Arms" and nothing else. Nurmrich knows nothing other than discontinued and .58 cal.
 
Measure the ROT yourself. There is an article on this forum, under " Member Resources" that tells you how to do it.
 
I went ghetto. I taped the switch down on the LED portion of the led/laser cat toy and dropped it down the bore. Rifling is at least 1/2 turn through the length of the barrel, maybe slightly more. I'm wagering 1/44 or so, maybe 1/56
 
I have come across the two hole head on a screw before(French MAS 1936) and used an old screw driver that I modified with a Dremel tool. Simply grind to width first, then grind out the center to leave two posts. Worked great.
 
ChairForce1 said:
I went ghetto. I taped the switch down on the LED portion of the led/laser cat toy and dropped it down the bore. Rifling is at least 1/2 turn through the length of the barrel, maybe slightly more. I'm wagering 1/44 or so, maybe 1/56


1 turn in 72 inches.
 
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