Using a Sling/Glove in BP Shooting Competition?

[Al Bently]

I'm curious if people here use slings on their rifles when they shoot BP events and/or if it's allowed where they typically shoot?

Rifle slings were certainly in use during the American Revolutionary War -- at least to shoulder muskets. While using a loop sling might not have come about for some time, I cannot help but think some original musketeers used their rifle's slings in a "hasty" manner.

Also do any of you wear a glove/mitt on your forehand in conjunction with a sling when shooting BP events? Thanks.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Guess I'm a little confussed! do you mean a sling to carry the gun and gloves to keep your hands warm? or High Power competition style shhoting with a glove and a sling? cause the latter is about a 100 years to late.

 

[Zonie]

The NMLRA rules state that for off hand shooting, only the shooters hands and "one shoulder" are allowed to support the gun and the rifle shall lie in the palm of the forward hand.

It seems to me a sling like the ones used in modern off hand shooting could be seen as a supporting device.

Here's a link to a pdf file of the 2010 regulations.
Although it is a bit out of date it can still serve to give a good idea of the rules.
http://nmlra.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Rules-Regulations.pdf

Of course, any private shooting contest will have its own rules and maybe some would allow a sling.

Can't say I've ever seen one used though.

 

[Al Bently]

The NMLRA rules state that for off hand shooting, only the shooters hands and "one shoulder" are allowed to support the gun and the rifle shall lie in the palm of the forward hand.

It seems to me a sling like the ones used in modern off hand shooting could be seen as a supporting device.

Here's a link to a pdf file of the 2010 regulations.
Although it is a bit out of date it can still serve to give a good idea of the rules.
http://nmlra.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Rules-Regulations.pdf

Of course, any private shooting contest will have its own rules and maybe some would allow a sling.

Can't say I've ever seen one used though.

OK, good stuff, thanks...

I wonder if that means you cannot rest your elbow against your ribs as well?

As far as the sling and glove, slings certainly existed way, way back. While I seriously doubt anyone (other than a sniper perhaps?) employed a loop sling back then, I cannot help but think some used their slings in a "hasty" manner.

I suspect as least a few used at least one gloved hand so their sling didn't bite into their hand.

Thanks again.

NB:

2350”“SHOOTING JACKETS”“Shooting jackets up to and including a large- or small-bore jacket of standard weight similar to photo (left) will be allowed in all matches except musket matches. Leather or international cinch-type jackets similar to photo (right) are NOT allowed.

2360”“SLINGS”“Slings may not be used in any shooting position, unless so stated in the shoot program.

It's remarkable they allow shooting jackets and not slings!

 

[Brokennock]

1st, a carry strap is NOT a sling. 2nd, elbow on ribs and torso contorted to make this possible is NOT offhand shooting, it is the standing position.

Would someone else who's "been to school," as Col. Cooper was fond to say, chime in here?

3rd, in even my limited research I have seen nothing to suggest the use of shooting slings or the thick padded gloves we use to isolate a modern target rifle from our pulse were used or even thought about, during the time period in question.

 

[Al Bently]

1st, a carry strap is NOT a sling.

Sure it is, and I really don't care what Cooper, et. al. have said about this subject. I absolutely detest when someone makes a big deal about the "misuse" (to themselves or an "expert" like Cooper) of nomenclature that has clear, long-standing and very wide colloquial use.

In any event the third posting on this thread answered my question, replete with documentation.

2nd, elbow on ribs and torso contorted to make this possible is NOT offhand shooting, it is the standing position.

There's a distinction? LOL! How about if one need not "contort" due to their physical size? Is there still a distinction?

Would someone else who's "been to school," as Col. Cooper was fond to say, chime in here?

I knew his name would come up. How very nice...

3rd, in even my limited research I have seen nothing to suggest the use of shooting slings or the thick padded gloves we use to isolate a modern target rifle from our pulse were used or even thought about, during the time period in question.

Then you need to dig a bit deeper and employ some critical thinking. It would be a good bet that Wasington's troups hadn't figured out loop slings, nor did their muskets have quick release swivels that would make them more usable given the muzzleloading requirement and all.

On the other hand it's difficult to believe that some soldiers didn't use (at least at times) a variant of the "hasty sling" using their... "carry straps" (which even then were widely known as "slings" I'm sure.)

I can imagine "hasty sling" use coming about because soldiers simply wanted to get a more secure grip on their musket in some situations -- perhaps dropping it based on their positioning would have been disastrous.

From there one could reason that the soldier (particularly those serving as de-facto snipers) would have also noticed the benefit of the "hasty sling" in stabilizing (as well as securing) their musket. After all this is how "slings" have evolved and continue to evolve even today.

So while the "hasty sling" might not have had great general infantry application during the Revolutionary War, I strongly suspect it was used by some in some situations.

For what it's worth, Google "Revolutionary War Musket Slings" and then wade though the plethora of data. Some of it seems to be from people very serious and learned about military history...

I'm curious, which "school" did you go to?

 

[Al Bently]

I also hope you're aware there are at least two other reasons that shooting mitts/gloves are worn on the forehand in addition to the single one you mentioned? Both would (or at least should) be fairly obvious to any user of the hasty or loop sling -- now and many, many years ago.

 

[coloradoclyde]

:bull:

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

:bull:

Yup.

 

[necchi]

Then you need to dig a bit deeper and employ some critical thinking.

The "critical thinking" thing is kind of a problem many new to the sport encounter.
Thinking of course is a good thing,
But when we apply 20th-21st century thinking to a 17th-18th century issue the things we come up with can be surprisingly different than what actually happened or what was in common practice 2-300yrs ago.

Are you participating in NMLRA sanctioned shoots? If you are then book applies, if not then the range or shoot rules can be vastly different.
Yes, guys use that rib cage/elbow support, some do some don't. I've never seen the carry strap/sling thing allowed in an off hand shoot. Off hand shooting tends to be very limited in using anything other than just simple off hand,, it's the thing that levels the playing field. Those with the skills win without mechanical assistance.

There are several recent topics about off hand shooting techniques.
Here's some advice you might find useful, watch the guy's that are winning your local matches. Most of them are talkative but can be a bit coy about their techniques/style they've mastered to be winning but with simple observation you can learn a lot.

 

[coloradoclyde]

The thing that puzzles me is;
Why would someone ask a question to which they do not know the answer and then argue and criticize the respondents as if they were an expert?
Perhaps they just like to argue, which makes the learning process that much more difficult.

 

[longcruise]

I have never observed the use of a sling on an ML other than by some hunters. Based on what has been said so far, it seems not to be allowed in NMLRA events. Most non NMLRA events would probably not allow them either.

Most hunters who use a carry sling probably have no clue as to the use of their sling to support the rifle. Sur seems to be the case with most hunters in general. Just my not so humble opinion.

The rib support position is frowned upon in my area, but allowed in a few less formal shoots. One of the best shooters that I have observed over the years grips the forearm with his arm extended nearly straight out and he forces the rifle into his shoulder with both his forearm hand and his right hand on the TG. He also shoots service rifle with an M1 where he uses all the conventional modern positions and techniques.

One shooter in the area uses an offhand position that comes close to the elbow in the ribs position. What he does is he stands straight up, places the forearm hand under the forearm just forward of the trigger guard with the thumb side of the hand towards his face. The fingers of the forearm hand squeeze down on the top edge of the stock at the point of the barrel exposure. The arm is no supported by the torso.

 

[coloradoclyde]

After searching through thousands of photographs (paintings) no evidence of the “hasty sling method” being used can be found.
What I did find was that more often the sling was held up tight to the rifle to keep it out of the way and from swinging.
Not to mention the fact that many slings attached to the front of the trigger guard precluding the use of the “Hasty sling method”.
For the most part the "Hasty sling method" is a 20th century invention just like asking questions on an internet forum.
Myth busted!

 

[necchi]

Why would someone ask a question to which they do not know the answer and then argue and criticize the respondents

:idunno:
It's the "No Child Left Behind" act.
They weren't taught to learn, just provide the answer.
Critical thinking means search all available data to find the answer.
We're supposed to defend the answer as the best and thus the ultimate correct test answer.
It's tuff to do when we enjoy a sport that's involved with history and wrought with historical imperfections and mistakes.
I mean why would somebody shoot a flintlock and open iron sights while just standing there holding the gun? That's hard, it's not the best accuracy, :idunno:

 

[Al Bently]

The thing that puzzles me is;
Why would someone ask a question to which they do not know the answer and then argue and criticize the respondents as if they were an expert?
Perhaps they just like to argue, which makes the learning process that much more difficult.

Are you serious? Really?

Posting #3 completely answered my question. Yet that didn't stop someone from posting #5 -- a posting that added absolutely no value. A posting meant to do nothing but get over on the person asking the original question.

 

[Al Bently]

Why would someone ask a question to which they do not know the answer and then argue and criticize the respondents

:idunno:
It's the "No Child Left Behind" act.
They weren't taught to learn, just provide the answer.
Critical thinking means search all available data to find the answer.
We're supposed to defend the answer as the best and thus the ultimate correct test answer.
It's tuff to do when we enjoy a sport that's involved with history and wrought with historical imperfections and mistakes.
I mean why would somebody shoot a flintlock and open iron sights while just standing there holding the gun? That's hard, it's not the best accuracy,

You're suggesting that's the reason for posting #5? I suppose there's some validity to that given that it's clear here some have no idea what "critical thinking" even means...

 

[bpd303]

I'm curious if people here use slings on their rifles when they shoot BP events and/or if it's allowed where they typically shoot?
NO and no.
Rifle slings were certainly in use during the American Revolutionary War -- at least to shoulder muskets. While using a loop sling might not have come about for some time, I cannot help but think some original musketeers used their rifle's slings in a "hasty" manner.

Also do any of you wear a glove/mitt on your forehand in conjunction with a sling when shooting BP events?
Personally again no. Thanks.

You're welcome.

 

[Al Bently]

After searching through thousands of photographs (paintings) no evidence of the “hasty sling method” being used can be found.
What I did find was that more often the sling was held up tight to the rifle to keep it out of the way and from swinging.
Not to mention the fact that many slings attached to the front of the trigger guard precluding the use of the “Hasty sling method”.
For the most part the "Hasty sling method" is a 20th century invention just like asking questions on an internet forum.
Myth busted!

" :bull: "

Given your other comments I simply don't accept your "research."

It's very reasonable that soldiers used their musket slings in different manners in which to get a "better hold" and in doing so found that certain methods also helped stabilize their muskets.

What's galactically stultified is the notion that there were no musket/rifle slings before the 20th Century.

Muskets and rifles had slings on them in the 17th and 18th Centuries and they were known as such by at least some. Just because something or someone (be it the US Army, Gunsite, Cooper, etc.) came along much later and differentiated between a "sling" and a "carry strap" does not change history nor the facts.

A shotgun is not a rifle, but both are guns no matter what some "expert" might suggest.

 

[Al Bently]

I'm curious if people here use slings on their rifles when they shoot BP events and/or if it's allowed where they typically shoot?
NO and no.
Rifle slings were certainly in use during the American Revolutionary War -- at least to shoulder muskets. While using a loop sling might not have come about for some time, I cannot help but think some original musketeers used their rifle's slings in a "hasty" manner.

Also do any of you wear a glove/mitt on your forehand in conjunction with a sling when shooting BP events?
Personally again no. Thanks.

You're welcome.

No thanks. My question was answered in full on the third posting of this thread.

 

[Al Bently]

I have never observed the use of a sling on an ML other than by some hunters. Based on what has been said so far, it seems not to be allowed in NMLRA events. Most non NMLRA events would probably not allow them either.

Then I suggest you Google "Revolutionary War Musket Sling." You'll see many historical examples. Slings were commonly made out of linen in years past it seems.

Most hunters who use a carry sling probably have no clue as to the use of their sling to support the rifle. Sur seems to be the case with most hunters in general. Just my not so humble opinion.

The rib support position is frowned upon in my area, but allowed in a few less formal shoots. One of the best shooters that I have observed over the years grips the forearm with his arm extended nearly straight out and he forces the rifle into his shoulder with both his forearm hand and his right hand on the TG. He also shoots service rifle with an M1 where he uses all the conventional modern positions and techniques.

One shooter in the area uses an offhand position that comes close to the elbow in the ribs position. What he does is he stands straight up, places the forearm hand under the forearm just forward of the trigger guard with the thumb side of the hand towards his face. The fingers of the forearm hand squeeze down on the top edge of the stock at the point of the barrel exposure. The arm is no supported by the torso.

Thanks.