Using a Sling/Glove in BP Shooting Competition?

[Al Bently]

jmVho, but, wouldn't it be rather difficult to "charge bayonets", or parry bayonets, if your arm is tangled in your tackle? Just a thought....... Will

Yep. Difficult while reloading too. I'm thinking about some de-facto snipers away from the line using long rifles perhaps?

 

[Al Bently]

There are no "beliefs" involved. No articles of faith. Its not a religion!

Speculation on history is a fun pastime, but you steadfastly ignore the fact that you completely miscomprehended my post to which you first took issue!

"Nope."

The better part of your paragraph following pretty much illustrates the the veracity of that which you deny!

BTW, Fleener is one of a relatively small group of shooters worldwide who pursue the LRML discipline. You would do better to at least present your questions civilly if you yourself are interested in broadening your knowledge.

In all sincerity have you ever learned how to think in a critical manner? Do you know the tools of deduction and induction and how to apply them? I'm asking that in a serious manner.

You're upset that I'm not accepting your personal beliefs and simply put, that's on you.

 

[Al Bently]

I also hope you're aware there are at least two other reasons that shooting mitts/gloves are worn on the forehand in addition to the single one you mentioned? Both would (or at least should) be fairly obvious to any user of the hasty or loop sling -- now and many, many years ago.

Anyone who knows they dampen pulse know they are to eliminate pain too. Third reason? Hmmm... Not gonna say grip are you? Like spraying rubber-cement on your mitten/forearm are you? I used to do that with my fingerless wool gloves and my Bess to keep that 17 MOA accuracy when I locked into prone.

Excellent... Eliminate pain, improve grip, protection, warmth and...?

 

[Grenadier1758]

Naw. It's called reasoning. The soldiers already had muskets/rifles. They already had slings. They were fighting for their lives and would have gladly embraced any advantage that would help them stay alive -- that's still true with today's soldiers.

The hasty sling is not a terribly difficult concept. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to reason that troopers would have used the slings in various ways, under various conditions to improve their grips on their firearms, whether or not the usage was "official" or not.

No, its not reasoning as one would think of it in the 20th and 21st century. I do reenacting as a grenadier in the British Army during the French and Indian War. All of our muskets (Long Land Pattern King's Musket) have slings. The use of the slings is limited to carry. The use of firearms in combat was rapid volley fire. Tying ones arm up in the sling would really slow up the cast about to get the musket in position to reload a cartridge at the 3 to 5 times a minute rate. Aiming and accuracy of shot was less of a priority than volume of fire.

In a hunting scenario where accuracy becomes important, the use of a sling for support would be passed over for the use of a tree.

Sorry Cal, Based on all the research in the use of arms, we only used the sling as a carry strap.

 

[Al Bently]

I use a glove on my support hand on a few rifles because the way I hold the stock I have gotten flash burn from the lock before (flinters) while it may be frowned upon I like modern shooting glasses, but I side with safety over looking HC/PC

You're not breaking any NMLRA rule that I can see. What you describe sounds like a good safety practice.

Speaking of safety, some of the NMLRA rules are quite odd. Either things are quite archaic within the organization or it's highly political.

Eye and ear protection are recommended but not required by the NMLRA? Really? That's crazy in this day and age -- even from nothing more than a liability standpoint. I wonder if the Friendship, IN range requires both?

It also allows some shooting coats (USMC type) and not others (Creedmoor.) I rather wonder why it allows any at all? Did they have shooting coats back in the day?

 

[coloradoclyde]

Have you ever researched and answered one of your own questions?

 

[Al Bently]

Naw. It's called reasoning. The soldiers already had muskets/rifles. They already had slings. They were fighting for their lives and would have gladly embraced any advantage that would help them stay alive -- that's still true with today's soldiers.

The hasty sling is not a terribly difficult concept. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to reason that troopers would have used the slings in various ways, under various conditions to improve their grips on their firearms, whether or not the usage was "official" or not.

No, its not reasoning as one would think of it in the 20th and 21st century. I do reenacting as a grenadier in the British Army during the French and Indian War. All of our muskets (Long Land Pattern King's Musket) have slings. The use of the slings is limited to carry. The use of firearms in combat was rapid volley fire. Tying ones arm up in the sling would really slow up the cast about to get the musket in position to reload a cartridge at the 3 to 5 times a minute rate. Aiming and accuracy of shot was less of a priority than volume of fire.

In a hunting scenario where accuracy becomes important, the use of a sling for support would be passed over for the use of a tree.

Sorry Cal, Based on all the research in the use of arms, we only used the sling as a carry strap.

Yes, all the research you have done...

It's clear that soldiers follow the rules during training without questioning them. That's precisely why some claim that "carry straps" cannot be slings. That's what they were told.

On the other hand to suggest slings were never used in a hasty-like manner during the RW or even before? Naw. I would never accept an absolute like that. I also suspect that creative use of rifle slings during that war helped to spawn new versions with new funtions.

It would be interesting to truly understand the official development and use of US slings -- not that doing so would give the full picture of how they were used.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Yes, all the research you have done...

It's clear that soldiers follow the rules during training without questioning them. That's precisely why some claim that "carry straps" cannot be slings. That's what they were told.

On the other hand to suggest slings were never used in a hasty-like manner during the RW or even before? Naw. I would never accept an absolute like that. I also suspect that creative use of rifle slings during that war helped to spawn new versions with new funtions.

It would be interesting to truly understand the official development and use of US slings -- not that doing so would give the full picture of how they were used.

Perception is everything, and as such we create our own realities.
This is why it is important to have verifiable and documented proof for our assertions.
Of which you have not provided one single historical example.
All you have done is argue for the sake of arguing.

 

[Dwight Rutherford]

Has anyone else grown weary? :surrender:

 

[necchi]

Truth that clyde!
Hang on a second, I have something that'll solve this;
There problem solved, I'm happy now, :wink:

 

[Dphar]

Since most American rifles had no provision for a sling back in the day why bother worrying about it? The 1803 Harpers Ferry had no provision for a sling and it was designed as a Military rifle by the military.

Dan

 

[Al Bently]

Since most American rifles had no provision for a sling back in the day why bother worrying about it? The 1803 Harpers Ferry had no provision for a sling and it was designed as a Military rifle by the military.

Dan

I think most military rifles/muskets did have slings back then. My ML rifle does have swivel studs (add-ons) and I learned to shoot in the smokeless world with a sling so I thought I would look into it.

 

[Zonie]

Earlier, you asked, "What is the World match?", and then went on to talk about the NMLRA rules.

The World Match is a muzzleloading competition, shot by competitors from all over the world. It is held in various countries all over the world.

They have their own rules for each of their matches and these rules may be different than the NMLRA's rules.

The US International Muzzleloading Team selects the members to compete in it.
http://www.usimlt.com/

To all:

As for bracing the arm against the body, the 2010 NMLRA rules state that this is against the rules unless the shooting match is for a Schuetzen event. In that event, the supporting hand can hold a ball like support that is attached to the rifle just below its center of gravity and the elbow of the supporting arm can rest against the shooters side.
The Schuetzen match is shot standing up at targets 200 yards downrange. Peep sights are allowed and the 10 ring is 4 inches in diameter.

 

[Dphar]

Naw. It's called reasoning. The soldiers already had muskets/rifles. They already had slings. They were fighting for their lives and would have gladly embraced any advantage that would help them stay alive -- that's still true with today's soldiers.

The hasty sling is not a terribly difficult concept. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to reason that troopers would have used the slings in various ways, under various conditions to improve their grips on their firearms, whether or not the usage was "official" or not.

No, its not reasoning as one would think of it in the 20th and 21st century. I do reenacting as a grenadier in the British Army during the French and Indian War. All of our muskets (Long Land Pattern King's Musket) have slings. The use of the slings is limited to carry. The use of firearms in combat was rapid volley fire. Tying ones arm up in the sling would really slow up the cast about to get the musket in position to reload a cartridge at the 3 to 5 times a minute rate. Aiming and accuracy of shot was less of a priority than volume of fire.

In a hunting scenario where accuracy becomes important, the use of a sling for support would be passed over for the use of a tree.

Sorry Cal, Based on all the research in the use of arms, we only used the sling as a carry strap.

Yes, all the research you have done...

It's clear that soldiers follow the rules during training without questioning them. That's precisely why some claim that "carry straps" cannot be slings. That's what they were told.

On the other hand to suggest slings were never used in a hasty-like manner during the RW or even before? Naw. I would never accept an absolute like that. I also suspect that creative use of rifle slings during that war helped to spawn new versions with new funtions.

It would be interesting to truly understand the official development and use of US slings -- not that doing so would give the full picture of how they were used.

Calgunner
Obviously you did not come here to learn anything but wanted some support from some predetermined idea. People tend to read the QUESTION, then write an answer. Many of us do not read the entire exchange. This is good since it generally gives the OP a range of answers from several perspectives.
So far as soldiers. Have you ever been one? I served in a combat zone in an infantry company and spent a lot of time patrolling on foot (and hiding in long grass/jungle/dark :wink: ). When we went outside the wire the sling went in my pocket. Never used one at all with the M-60 and I carried one of them a lot too. Slings made noise and got in the way.
As I previously stated few American military rifles prior to the 1814 Common rifle even had a provision for a sling and I cannot find a photo of an original sling for one of these. The musket shooter? They were taught to shoot and load by the numbers and a "hasty sling" etc would just slow them down. So unless you find some mention in a MILITARY manual of the time its "no".
So:
The NMLRA does not allow slings.
The American rifle even the MILITARY rifles did not have provision for slings until 1814 and the civilian rifle virtually never had one.
A sling would HINDER using a musket in combat. not help.

THEN:
"... In the state of Indiana, on April 27, 1861 three cases marked Lafayette Depot were received by the Indiana Ordnance Department. One crate was shipped with 50 altered percussion muskets, 51 bayonets, 52 scabbards, and only 10 gun slings. In the three cases, out of a total of 151 rifles and muskets of different makes, only 26 longarms were equipped with gun slings (4). By looking through the Indiana Ordnance records one can see that these numbers do not change much throughout the entire war (4). It seems that most of the rifles and muskets issued to Indiana troops (or any other state for that matter) did not come equipped with slings. By thumbing through the pages of such sources as Military Images Magazine, the Image of War series, and the Time-Life Book series, one will see that the majority of the men in these photos do not have slings, on their muskets."
From http://www.rollanetorg/~stacyw/rifle_sling_controversy.htm
Apparently only a small percentage of soldiers n the Civil War had slings.

So were slings used as shooting aids in the ML era? Given the way the slings were made (they were not 1907 type slings) and that by the Civil War they were apparently uncommon. In looking at some battlefield photos taken after action during the Civil War I see no slings. These can be found with a google search.
So I think we can say that slings were not used other than as a carry strap in the 1860s IF they had one. Is it possible that SOMEWHERE in the Civil War someone may have used a sling? Sure. But while is possible, its unlikely in the extreme simply because there were very few slings and they were not really usable as we use them today in HP shooting since they, even the sling on the 1873 TD breechloader, were not the same design as the 1907 sling generally used by HP shooters unless some more modern hookup is used. So its very likely that the sling use we see today came about AFTER the introduction of the 1907 sling for the 1903 Springfield.
Finally in the British Army, for example, the musket was not aimed it was pointed and the trigger pulls were in the 15-20 pound range (if not more) in many cases. So the use of a sling to improve accuracy is simply trying to put a 20th c face on the 18th-early 19th c. With a perfect rest hitting a man past about 70 yards was luck with the Musket of the 18th c. And the Sgt would not like your not getting off a shot while fooling with a sling in manner not in the "book".

Dan

 

[longcruise]

You have not asked anything in a serious manner!

Maybe you should lobby Claude to open a polemics forum for you.

 

[Al Bently]

Earlier, you asked, "What is the World match?", and then went on to talk about the NMLRA rules.

The World Match is a muzzleloading competition, shot by competitors from all over the world. It is held in various countries all over the world.

They have their own rules for each of their matches and these rules may be different than the NMLRA's rules.

The US International Muzzleloading Team selects the members to compete in it.
http://www.usimlt.com/[/quote]

Thanks, that's quite interesting. I was curious about the added equipment given that we were discussing the NMLRA rules?

To all:

As for bracing the arm against the body, the 2010 NMLRA rules state that this is against the rules unless the shooting match is for a Schuetzen event. In that event, the supporting hand can hold a ball like support that is attached to the rifle just below its center of gravity and the elbow of the supporting arm can rest against the shooters side.
The Schuetzen match is shot standing up at targets 200 yards downrange. Peep sights are allowed and the 10 ring is 4 inches in diameter.

Where do the rules say this? I found the following:

"5600””RIFLE OFFHAND CLASSIFICATIONS

5610”“OFFHAND POSITION”“Standing on both feet, with no other portion of the body touching the ground or any other supporting surface. The rifle will be supported by both hands and one shoulder only. The rifle must lie in the palm of the forward hand.

5620”“SCHUETZEN OFFHAND POSITION”“Same as offhand position; however, a palm rest is allowed.

5630”“TRADITIONAL OFFHAND HUNTING RIFLE”“A firearm of approved ignition typical of the firearms commonly available prior to 1840. Locks shall be of exposed side hammer or mule ear design. Stock styling shall be in the same spirit as that of the ignition system and shall be of a hunting rifle design with provisions to carry a ramrod. Set triggers are allowed. Radical target-rifle type stocks are not allowed. Sights shall be as the match program calls for."

A palm rest may facilitate the elbow/ribs connection but it's not one in the same:

 

[coloradoclyde]

Now that is a first class upbraid :hatsoff:

 

[Sean Gadhar]

Wow am I happy I have no dog in this hunt.

That being the case, could it be that a basic tenets of reenacting is not being clearly pointed out here & that much of this is over Two definitions of I'm sure they did.

I made a haversack (well the wife did the stitching)I added a long pocket to the strap, it seemed intuitive :idunno:

Do I think I'm the first bright soul to say "hay honey, could you add an extra pocket just there"? Well no. So do I think it existed when every Tom, Dick, & Harry had a haversack? Well yes.

In this world of reenactment, dose my thinking that it MUST have been, mean anything? NOPE

Documentation is the proof of existence in this reenactment world. If I could find a painting, sketch, or a letter home saying "Ma that extra pocket on the strap of me haversack works fine for me fife" :idunno:

Alas I have not found where one existed then, and in till I do It didn't

So when you have a painting, sketch, or a letter home (that can be shown to be period) saying "gee Da when I wrap my arm in the sling like ya showed me, I shoot much better then the other lads" It was.

But until then, in the reenactment world It weren't :v

So endith the lesson.

 

[Rifleman1776]

You have not asked anything in a serious manner!

Maybe you should lobby Claude to open a polemics forum for you.

I'll agree, CG has a style that can get under the skin a bit. But he is far from alone. This is a "discussion" forum. Not a strictly Q&A site. His response, while not necessarily helpful was his thoughts and discussed as a matter sharing information. Lighten up.

 

[Dphar]

Interesting that they changed this offhand rule. I think this rule had been in place since the time of the founding of the NMLRA, I know it was the rule in the 1960s.
Still outlaws balancing on the fingertips to allow better elbow to ribs contact though. For some physiques this basically outlaws an effective elbow on the ribs offhand position.

Dan