Using a Sling/Glove in BP Shooting Competition?

[Alden]

It also allows some shooting coats (USMC type) and not others (Creedmoor.) I rather wonder why it allows any at all? Did they have shooting coats back in the day?

Are you familiar with military (Marine) "shooting coats"? I think they're referring to the standard which are basically a pleated shooting-practice-reinforced collarless fatigue shirt with a pocket for a range book. Not sure what your issue is -- these are not the position-locking exoskeletel leather or now ballistic nylon jackets used in High-Power Service Rifle competition with cinching straps, sling keepers, etc.
:shake:

 

[ResearchPress]

I'm curious if people here use slings on their rifles when they shoot BP events and/or if it's allowed where they typically shoot?

Rifle slings were certainly in use during the American Revolutionary War -- at least to shoulder muskets. While using a loop sling might not have come about for some time, I cannot help but think some original musketeers used their rifle's slings in a "hasty" manner.

Also do any of you wear a glove/mitt on your forehand in conjunction with a sling when shooting BP events? Thanks.

Captain Barber's "Instructions for the Formation and Exercise of Volunteer Sharp-Shooters" (London, 1804) makes various references to the use of the sling when shooting.

Standing: "the position is firmest when erect, ..., the left elbow in the sling"
Prone: "the fore part of the gun may rest on the man's hat, and be drawn close to it by pulling the sling with the left hand" .... "when on the back, the sling should also be held tight..."

If one looks at Ezekiel Baker's "Remarks on Rifle Guns" (my reprint to hand is 8th edition, London, 1823) then several illustrations will be found with a shooter using a sling for support. Positions shown:
1. Standing with the sling wrapped under the foreward arm
2. Kneeeling with the sling pulled tight under the stock by the forward hand
3. Prone with the sling pulled tight under the stock by the forward hand and the stock additionally rested on the shooters hat
4. Back position with the sling looped over the shooters foot

On page 29 the author notes: "In lying on the belly, it will be found difficult for the left hand to grasp the stock forward; in that case, the sling or belt should be pulled firmly back, to keep the rifle steady whilst firing."

Here in the UK and in shooting Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain (MLAGB) competitions, sling and shooting glove are permitted.

Muzzle Loaders Associations International Committee (MLAIC - www.mlaic.org) is the World Governing Body for muzzle loading shooting. MLAIC hold World and Zone (European and Pacific) Championships and slings, gloves and modern shooting jackets are permitted.

David

 

[azmntman]

Ok I stopped reading on page 1. A lil advise (take it or leave it?) STOP ARGUING WITH EVERY ONE! just ask, read, learn, post when you can help. One need not respond to everyone they disagree with. Getting tired of it :bull: . This isnt supposed to be a 7th grade BP debate forum?? :surrender: :yakyak: :shake: :stir:

 

[Al Bently]

You have not asked anything in a serious manner!

Maybe you should lobby Claude to open a polemics forum for you.

I'll agree, CG has a style that can get under the skin a bit. But he is far from alone. This is a "discussion" forum. Not a strictly Q&A site. His response, while not necessarily helpful was his thoughts and discussed as a matter sharing information. Lighten up.

And what was the purpose of your posting? I find it offensive. How does that work for you? It's remarkable that you choose to judge someone while making the post you did.

You want contrast? Compare posting #2 with posting #3 on this thread.

#2 was posted by someone looking for attention -- someone longing to get over on someone else -- in other words, trolling. Trolling of the worst kind, meant to derail a thread before good input could be posted.

#3 on the other hand was posted by someone who clearly wanted to (and was able to) give relevant input. Input which I appreciate.

 

[Al Bently]

It also allows some shooting coats (USMC type) and not others (Creedmoor.) I rather wonder why it allows any at all? Did they have shooting coats back in the day?

Are you familiar with military (Marine) "shooting coats"? I think they're referring to the standard which are basically a pleated shooting-practice-reinforced collarless fatigue shirt with a pocket for a range book. Not sure what your issue is -- these are not the position-locking exoskeletel leather or now ballistic nylon jackets used in High-Power Service Rifle competition with cinching straps, sling keepers, etc.

The photo is poor on the rules but it's very curios they would allow any sort of shooting jacket. I don't think there were many use back in the day...

 

[Al Bently]

Ok I stopped reading on page 1. A lil advise (take it or leave it?) STOP ARGUING WITH EVERY ONE! just ask, read, learn, post when you can help. One need not respond to everyone they disagree with. Getting tired of it . This isnt supposed to be a 7th grade BP debate forum??

What a childish and offensive posting...

 

[coloradoclyde]

Great resource, http://www.19thus.com/files/Barbers.pdf
I never thought to put a British spin on it.
However as I read the passage:

A rifleman should practice firing in all positions ;””standing, kneeling, sitting, laying on
the ground, on the belly and the back: for the precise forms of these different attitudes, he
may chiefly consult his own ease and firmness, but it appears to me that when standing,
the position is firmest when erect, and the feet only about twelve inches asunder, the left
elbow in the sling when kneeling, the position should incline to be extended, the elbow
on the left knee: when fitting, a position something like that of a taylor's, I have found
very steady, with an elbow on each knee: in laying on the belly, the fore part of the gun
may rest on the man's hat, and be drawn close to it by pulling the fling with the left hand:
when on the back, the sling should also be held tight, or the toes may be endangered:
other petitions may be occasionally resorted to, but whatever they be, ease and firmness
are indispensably requisite. Loading whilst lying on the ground should also be practiced,
but this can scarcely be done, except with cartridge.

He appears to be dressing the sling to keep it out of the way and not using it as a support mechanism. This is Especially so when he makes reference to a Taylor.

 

[Al Bently]

I'm curious if people here use slings on their rifles when they shoot BP events and/or if it's allowed where they typically shoot?

Rifle slings were certainly in use during the American Revolutionary War -- at least to shoulder muskets. While using a loop sling might not have come about for some time, I cannot help but think some original musketeers used their rifle's slings in a "hasty" manner.

Also do any of you wear a glove/mitt on your forehand in conjunction with a sling when shooting BP events? Thanks.

Captain Barber's "Instructions for the Formation and Exercise of Volunteer Sharp-Shooters" (London, 1804) makes various references to the use of the sling when shooting.

Standing: "the position is firmest when erect, ..., the left elbow in the sling"
Prone: "the fore part of the gun may rest on the man's hat, and be drawn close to it by pulling the sling with the left hand" .... "when on the back, the sling should also be held tight..."

If one looks at Ezekiel Baker's "Remarks on Rifle Guns" (my reprint to hand is 8th edition, London, 1823) then several illustrations will be found with a shooter using a sling for support. Positions shown:
1. Standing with the sling wrapped under the foreward arm
2. Kneeeling with the sling pulled tight under the stock by the forward hand
3. Prone with the sling pulled tight under the stock by the forward hand and the stock additionally rested on the shooters hat
4. Back position with the sling looped over the shooters foot

On page 29 the author notes: "In lying on the belly, it will be found difficult for the left hand to grasp the stock forward; in that case, the sling or belt should be pulled firmly back, to keep the rifle steady whilst firing."

Here in the UK and in shooting Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain (MLAGB) competitions, sling and shooting glove are permitted.

Muzzle Loaders Associations International Committee (MLAIC - www.mlaic.org) is the World Governing Body for muzzle loading shooting. MLAIC hold World and Zone (European and Pacific) Championships and slings, gloves and modern shooting jackets are permitted.

David

Thanks very much for the information. It's extremely interesting to me -- I appreciate the effort.

 

[Alden]

The photo is poor on the rules but it's very curios they would allow any sort of shooting jacket. I don't think there were many use back in the day...

Why is it curious? It's a heavy shirt with extra layers, maybe some felt, at the shoulder and forearms/elbows -- looking kind of like Fleener's wearing in his shooting from what I can tell...

...except of course a US Marine would never wear The Tilley Hat; that'd be right up there with French Army Shorts -- ooo la la!

 

[coloradoclyde]

Congratulations Calgunner,
You have won the prestigious honor of becoming my very first addition to the lead box.
I have always been dead set against such an action, believing that even the seemingly insignificant can provide insight into the unknown. However in this case you have only enabled me to read more pages from the DSM-V than I care to.
I now will join countless others and add you to the lead box.

 

[Al Bently]

The photo is poor on the rules but it's very curios they would allow any sort of shooting jacket. I don't think there were many use back in the day...

Why is it curious? It's a heavy shirt with extra layers, maybe some felt, at the shoulder and forearms/elbows -- looking kind of like Fleener's wearing in his shooting from what I can tell...

...except of course a US Marine would never wear The Tilley Hat; that'd be right up there with French Army Shorts -- ooo la la!

With regard to the NMLRA rules, -- because it's immediately recognizable as a USMC-type (perhaps there is a specific name?) shooting coat and they didn't have USMC shooting coats that looked like those back in the day.

While it cannot be torqued-down like a Creedmor, it still provides utility that soldier's uniforms did not provide back in the day.

 

[ResearchPress]

He appears to be dressing the sling to keep it out of the way and not using it as a support mechanism. This is Especially so when he makes reference to a Taylor.

The source you quote from has missed out some punctuation which appears to suggest "the left elbow in the sling when kneeling". There is a colon missing after the word sling. Additionally "fitting" should read "sitting", "fling" = "sling", "petitions" = "positions". Looks like someone has used OCR on the text but not proof read fully.

I have a facsimilie reprint of the orignal published by Museum Restoration Service, Ontario, 1968.

The section should read:

"...when standing, the position is firmest when erect, and the feet only about twelve inches asunder, the left elbow in the sling: when kneeling, the position should incline to be extended, the elbow on the left knee: when sitting, a position something like that of a taylor's, I have found very steady, with an elbow on each knee: in laying on the belly, the fore part of the gun may rest on the man's hat, and be drawn close to it by pulling the sling with the left hand: when on the back, the sling should also be held tight, or the toes may be endangered: other positions may be occasionally resorted to, but whatever they be, ease and firmness are indispensably requisite. Loading whilst lying on the ground should also be practiced, but this can scarcely be done, except with cartridge."

So for the standing position it simply says "the left elbow in the sling" - if it were not being used as a support mechanism I wonder why he would write that. When laying on the belly and the back the author refers to "pulling" the sling and it being "held tight" which suggest to me more purpose than keeping it out of the way.

As previously posted Baker's book shows a rifleman on aim in the standing position with the sling wrapped under the foreward arm. An additional passage from Baker covering "to fire off-hand without a rest" makes reference to the use and purpose of the sling: "the sling under the elbow, will keep it firm and steady to the shoulder".

The sitting position (where the taylor reference appears) makes no reference to sling use.

David

 

[Alden]

Why is it curious? It's a heavy shirt with extra layers, maybe some felt, at the shoulder and forearms/elbows -- looking kind of like Fleener's wearing in his shooting from what I can tell...

...except of course a US Marine would never wear The Tilley Hat; that'd be right up there with French Army Shorts -- ooo la la!

With regard to the NMLRA rules, -- because it's immediately recognizable as a USMC-type (perhaps there is a specific name?) shooting coat and they didn't have USMC shooting coats that looked like those back in the day.

While it cannot be torqued-down like a Creedmor, it still provides utility that soldier's uniforms did not provide back in the day.

Not sure what soldier's uniforms have to do with this explicitly and, obviously, you have never worn a Marine Corp. Shooting Jacket nor short clothes and a regimental coat. I will say your observations are baseless, fundamentally incorrect, and apparently pointless unless I'm missing something obtuse. I wore, and wore out, shooting in the former ...
http://www.armynavysales.com/products/usmc-shooter-jacket/

...and have made, worn, and shot in the latter.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Still very interesting,
I wonder what the weapon used would have been for the time period(1804) interesting because he uses the word rifle several times?
Presumably the Baker rifle.

 

[ResearchPress]

Yes, the Baker rifle which had been issued in 1800.

David

 

[Dean2]

I'm curious if people here use slings on their rifles when they shoot BP events and/or if it's allowed where they typically shoot?

Rifle slings were certainly in use during the American Revolutionary War -- at least to shoulder muskets. While using a loop sling might not have come about for some time, I cannot help but think some original musketeers used their rifle's slings in a "hasty" manner.

Also do any of you wear a glove/mitt on your forehand in conjunction with a sling when shooting BP events? Thanks.

DAVID MARSHALL REPLIED

Captain Barber's "Instructions for the Formation and Exercise of Volunteer Sharp-Shooters" (London, 1804) makes various references to the use of the sling when shooting.

Standing: "the position is firmest when erect, ..., the left elbow in the sling"
Prone: "the fore part of the gun may rest on the man's hat, and be drawn close to it by pulling the sling with the left hand" .... "when on the back, the sling should also be held tight..."

If one looks at Ezekiel Baker's "Remarks on Rifle Guns" (my reprint to hand is 8th edition, London, 1823) then several illustrations will be found with a shooter using a sling for support. Positions shown:
1. Standing with the sling wrapped under the foreward arm
2. Kneeeling with the sling pulled tight under the stock by the forward hand
3. Prone with the sling pulled tight under the stock by the forward hand and the stock additionally rested on the shooters hat
4. Back position with the sling looped over the shooters foot

On page 29 the author notes: "In lying on the belly, it will be found difficult for the left hand to grasp the stock forward; in that case, the sling or belt should be pulled firmly back, to keep the rifle steady whilst firing."

Here in the UK and in shooting Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain (MLAGB) competitions, sling and shooting glove are permitted.

Muzzle Loaders Associations International Committee (MLAIC - www.mlaic.org) is the World Governing Body for muzzle loading shooting. MLAIC hold World and Zone (European and Pacific) Championships and slings, gloves and modern shooting jackets are permitted.

David

Very interesting information. While I can't say I am a fan of Calgunners approach to this subject it is clear to me that without his insistence in pursuing this, all those that claimed slings were never used as support aids when firing would have considered themselves proven right and this contrary information would likely never have come to light.

To whoever said in re-enacting it isn't proven till it is documented, I would say it is now proven as documented, and far earlier than the civil war.

Calgunner, you may wan't to ease back a bit on the throttle, but good for you for sticking with the question. Between you and Mr Marshall: something new was learned by a great many people.

 

[Al Bently]

I'm curious if people here use slings on their rifles when they shoot BP events and/or if it's allowed where they typically shoot?

Rifle slings were certainly in use during the American Revolutionary War -- at least to shoulder muskets. While using a loop sling might not have come about for some time, I cannot help but think some original musketeers used their rifle's slings in a "hasty" manner.

Also do any of you wear a glove/mitt on your forehand in conjunction with a sling when shooting BP events? Thanks.

DAVID MARSHALL REPLIED

Captain Barber's "Instructions for the Formation and Exercise of Volunteer Sharp-Shooters" (London, 1804) makes various references to the use of the sling when shooting.

Standing: "the position is firmest when erect, ..., the left elbow in the sling"
Prone: "the fore part of the gun may rest on the man's hat, and be drawn close to it by pulling the sling with the left hand" .... "when on the back, the sling should also be held tight..."

If one looks at Ezekiel Baker's "Remarks on Rifle Guns" (my reprint to hand is 8th edition, London, 1823) then several illustrations will be found with a shooter using a sling for support. Positions shown:
1. Standing with the sling wrapped under the foreward arm
2. Kneeeling with the sling pulled tight under the stock by the forward hand
3. Prone with the sling pulled tight under the stock by the forward hand and the stock additionally rested on the shooters hat
4. Back position with the sling looped over the shooters foot

On page 29 the author notes: "In lying on the belly, it will be found difficult for the left hand to grasp the stock forward; in that case, the sling or belt should be pulled firmly back, to keep the rifle steady whilst firing."

Here in the UK and in shooting Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain (MLAGB) competitions, sling and shooting glove are permitted.

Muzzle Loaders Associations International Committee (MLAIC - www.mlaic.org) is the World Governing Body for muzzle loading shooting. MLAIC hold World and Zone (European and Pacific) Championships and slings, gloves and modern shooting jackets are permitted.

David

Very interesting information. While I can't say I am a fan of Calgunners approach to this subject it is clear to me that without his insistence in pursuing this, all those that claimed slings were never used as support aids when firing would have considered themselves proven right and this contrary information would likely never have come to light.

To whoever said in re-enacting it isn't proven till it is documented, I would say it is now proven as documented, and far earlier than the civil war.

Calgunner, you may wan't to ease back a bit on the throttle, but good for you for sticking with the question. Between you and Mr Marshall: something new was learned by a great many people.

I agree with your comments about Mr. David Minshall's comments and the references he brought to the discussion. I am very grateful he weighed in and I'll leave it at that.

You're quite right about it being a good idea to ease back. However (and this is not an excuse) I do find myself pushing back against genuine trolls (rather than simply ignoring them) because they tend to drive newbies (who may just be a tad less hard-shelled than I) away from whatever interest/sport is under discussion and that's hardcore wrong when it comes to firearms.

Pro 2A folks already have enough opposition and grief from anti-gunners...

 

[Al Bently]

He appears to be dressing the sling to keep it out of the way and not using it as a support mechanism. This is Especially so when he makes reference to a Taylor.

The source you quote from has missed out some punctuation which appears to suggest "the left elbow in the sling when kneeling". There is a colon missing after the word sling. Additionally "fitting" should read "sitting", "fling" = "sling", "petitions" = "positions". Looks like someone has used OCR on the text but not proof read fully.

I have a facsimilie reprint of the orignal published by Museum Restoration Service, Ontario, 1968.

The section should read:

"...when standing, the position is firmest when erect, and the feet only about twelve inches asunder, the left elbow in the sling: when kneeling, the position should incline to be extended, the elbow on the left knee: when sitting, a position something like that of a taylor's, I have found very steady, with an elbow on each knee: in laying on the belly, the fore part of the gun may rest on the man's hat, and be drawn close to it by pulling the sling with the left hand: when on the back, the sling should also be held tight, or the toes may be endangered: other positions may be occasionally resorted to, but whatever they be, ease and firmness are indispensably requisite. Loading whilst lying on the ground should also be practiced, but this can scarcely be done, except with cartridge."

So for the standing position it simply says "the left elbow in the sling" - if it were not being used as a support mechanism I wonder why he would write that. When laying on the belly and the back the author refers to "pulling" the sling and it being "held tight" which suggest to me more purpose than keeping it out of the way.

As previously posted Baker's book shows a rifleman on aim in the standing position with the sling wrapped under the foreward arm. An additional passage from Baker covering "to fire off-hand without a rest" makes reference to the use and purpose of the sling: "the sling under the elbow, will keep it firm and steady to the shoulder".

The sitting position (where the taylor reference appears) makes no reference to sling use.

David

Thank you again, David. I very much appreciate you sharing your knowlege and documentation on this subject. The archaic verbiage alone is quite interesting to read and ponder...

 

[Al Bently]

Why is it curious? It's a heavy shirt with extra layers, maybe some felt, at the shoulder and forearms/elbows -- looking kind of like Fleener's wearing in his shooting from what I can tell...

...except of course a US Marine would never wear The Tilley Hat; that'd be right up there with French Army Shorts -- ooo la la!

With regard to the NMLRA rules, -- because it's immediately recognizable as a USMC-type (perhaps there is a specific name?) shooting coat and they didn't have USMC shooting coats that looked like those back in the day.

While it cannot be torqued-down like a Creedmor, it still provides utility that soldier's uniforms did not provide back in the day.

Not sure what soldier's uniforms have to do with this explicitly and, obviously, you have never worn a Marine Corp. Shooting Jacket nor short clothes and a regimental coat. I will say your observations are baseless, fundamentally incorrect, and apparently pointless unless I'm missing something obtuse. I wore, and wore out, shooting in the former ...
http://www.armynavysales.com/products/usmc-shooter-jacket/

...and have made, worn, and shot in the latter.

Resorting to the old ad hominem angle? I figured that was coming...

 

[Claude Mathis]

My question was answered in full on the third posting of this thread.

Excellent.