Velocity vs Penetration vs Expansion

[mnbearbaiter]

I shoot a 54cal 36" brrl Leman rifle loaded with 100gr ffg T7, op felt wad, and a .530 Hornady rb/.015 patch TOTW mink oil lubed. It's a pretty stout load that shoots light out. 90gr also shoots well. Mainly shoot deer, but bear, pronghorn, and elk are all on menu. I've recovered many rb on far side hide of deer. Does less powder tend to aid in penetration since it seems it would slow down expansion? I like the trajectory of my loading, but wonder if shaving some powder off would show any benefit?

 

[Spikebuck]

I shoot 90 to 100 grs with pure lead .530 roundballs. Only ever "recovered" one...all the rest passed completely through and the exit hole did not appear to be different than the entrance hole. The one that did not go all the way through was shattered into tiny pieces after hitting very heavy bone.

So, your experience appears to be completely opposite of mine despite very similar loads. Some of mine used T7 in my Hawken capper. Real black in my flintlocks.

I can't imagine less powder resulting in greater penetration if all else is the same.

 

[mnbearbaiter]

I've only ever had complete pass-throughs on farther pure broadside shots which I assumed were due to slower velocity? Otherwise my closer <50yd shots I sually have/take on my MN whitetails result in a recovered far side hide ball that's size of a nickel or so?

 

[Sparkitoff]

This is food for thought - I do not mean to be a smart allek. In a discussion of how much velocity was needed to get a round ball to expand, I thought the anecdotes from the group were ridiculous. I threw a round ball against the wall, and against the couch. Both flattened some and increased diameter. So, I went outside and threw one through the chronograph. I then boldly stated, it takes about 57 Feet Per Second.

The ball that hit the wall was flattened and expanded more than the one that hit the much softer couch, but both had a flat spot and some change in diameter where that spot was. To take this further, we had a couple deer and hogs hanging in the cooler. I filled a water trough and put it under a deer and hog. I stepped back around 10-feet and threw my best pitch at them and the ball hit and dropped into the water. Both of them deformed.

While there is some ridiculousness to the whole series of events with my group, it proved one thing. It doesn't take much velocity to deform a pure lead ball.

 

[CapPopper]

Just watched a YouTube video (ilovemuzzleloading) where he shot a .490 ball against several Conicals and the ball actually out penetrated the Conicals. Of course the initial I pact was no where near as impressive. Not sure on range either but I know he said the ball was around 1900 at the muzzle.

 

[Grimord]

90 grains of Goex with a .530 mink oil lubed ball is my .54 deer load. Most of my shots are 60 yards or less. I have yet to recover a ball from a deer. all have been pass thrus, with the exit hole about the size of a ping pong ball. One deer shot at a measured 43 yards was hit in the center of the chest facing me. The ball went completely thru and exited the lower part of the rear ham (ruined some good meat).

 

[Tom A Hawk]

In my experience, higher velocity certainly results in greater deformation in soft lead balls.

These .54 Hawken balls were fire over 120 grains of Goex 2F into whitetails at a range of about 50 yards. Both were found just under hide on the off side. The hide, being elastic, acts as a catching net.

So, yes penetration was reduced.

However, and its a big however - the impact energy of a soft .54 round ball fired at 1800 - 2000 fps. makes for one hell of an impression on the game.

Here is the impact of the same load at 100 yards.

 

[rich pierce]

Under controlled conditions one might find a correlation between velocity and expansion and penetration for individual calibers within the working range of velocities for round ball muzzleloaders. But bone or no bone makes a big difference. I have yet to figure out how to hit or miss ribs. Often I find pieces of bone in lungs if I’ve hit a rib on the way in. Bigger balls like .570 don’t seem to care as much. Big time penetration.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

Under controlled conditions one might find a correlation between velocity and expansion and penetration for individual calibers within the working range of velocities for round ball muzzleloaders. But bone or no bone makes a big difference. I have yet to figure out how to hit or miss ribs. Often I find pieces of bone in lungs if I’ve hit a rib on the way in. Bigger balls like .570 don’t seem to care as much. Big time penetration.

What speed do you think that big .570 is traveling?

 

[rich pierce]

What speed do you think that big .570 is traveling?

About 1400 fps at the muzzle. Only one data point on deer, a diagonal shot traveling from front shoulder to exit behind the last rib on the far side. I didn’t realize the deer was angled that much. Near side rib and lung, then diaphragm, liver, stomach, exit. Not ideal but a dead deer.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

About 1400 fps at the muzzle. Only one data point on deer, a diagonal shot traveling from front shoulder to exit behind the last rib on the far side. I didn’t realize the deer was angled that much. Near side rib and lung, then diaphragm, liver, stomach, exit. Not ideal but a dead deer.

Low velocity...less expansion.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

A 405 grain pill traveling at 1450fps will pernitrate 6 feet of meat.
Randy Garrett has done a lot of research on black powder loads.
Randy makes big game black powder loads for hunting Africa type big game.
The info is on his website.

90-100 grains in a 3 foot barrel is mostly wasting powder.

Here is how to calculate the Davenport Formula:

.50 divided by 2 = .25
.25 x .25 = .0625
.0625 times Pi( 3.1416)= 0.19635
.19635 x 11.5 = 2.2580
2.2580 x 28 inches( barrel length)= 63.22 grains of powder.

Using this formula with a 54 cal and a 36 inch barrel, 83 grains is the max that short barrel can burn.
The rest just goes down range as flame.

 

[rich pierce]

A 405 grain pill traveling at 1450fps will pernitrate 6 feet of meat.
Randy Garrett has done a lot of research on black powder loads.
Randy makes big game black powder loads for hunting Africa type big game.
The info is on his website.

90-100 grains in a 3 foot barrel is mostly wasting powder.

Here is how to calculate the Davenport Formula:

.50 divided by 2 = .25
.25 x .25 = .0625
.0625 times Pi( 3.1416)= 0.19635
.19635 x 11.5 = 2.2580
2.2580 x 28 inches( barrel length)= 63.22 grains of powder.

Using this formula with a 54 cal and a 36 inch barrel, 83 grains is the max that short barrel can burn.
The rest just goes down range as flame.

So 11.5 is the constant in this formula Pi x r squared x constant x barrel length in inches = powder that can be consumed efficiently?

Interesting! I will do some calculations. I’m scared to learn what my .69 with a 48” barrel can burn!

 

[Tom A Hawk]

A 405 grain pill traveling at 1450fps will pernitrate 6 feet of meat.
Randy Garrett has done a lot of research on black powder loads.
Randy makes big game black powder loads for hunting Africa type big game.
The info is on his website.

90-100 grains in a 3 foot barrel is mostly wasting powder.

Here is how to calculate the Davenport Formula:

.50 divided by 2 = .25
.25 x .25 = .0625
.0625 times Pi( 3.1416)= 0.19635
.19635 x 11.5 = 2.2580
2.2580 x 28 inches( barrel length)= 63.22 grains of powder.

Using this formula with a 54 cal and a 36 inch barrel, 83 grains is the max that short barrel can burn.
The rest just goes down range as flame.

So,,,between 83 and 120 grains there should be no significant difference in muzzle velocity. Right?

 

[Johnny Tremain]

I did the same thing, I used to use 55gr for shots under 100 yards and 110gr for over 100 yards.
Come to find out my 42 inch barrel can only handle 74.5gr so now that is my over the 100 yard load.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

So,,,between 83 and 120 grains there should be no significant difference in muzzle velocity. Right?

According to the formula, Yes. The excess powder is blowing out the muzzle.
Like mentioned above I went form 110gr to 74.5gr. The speed for 74.5gr is 2033fps.
I never chronyed the 110gr charge.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

When the weather clears I'll set up my chronograph and we'll do some testing with round balls.

 

[stikshooter]

I shoot 90 to 100 grs with pure lead .530 roundballs. Only ever "recovered" one...all the rest passed completely through and the exit hole did not appear to be different than the entrance hole. The one that did not go all the way through was shattered into tiny pieces after hitting very heavy bone.

So, your experience appears to be completely opposite of mine despite very similar loads. Some of mine used T7 in my Hawken capper. Real black in my flintlocks.

I can't imagine less powder resulting in greater penetration if all else is the same.

It absolutely does along with yardage ! I assume pure lead ,under 100yds and lots of velocity the ball mushrooms while a bit slower lessens the mushroom and increases chance of pass thru . If bone is hit /angle of critter ,those are all variables . But easily proven on broadside target with dimensioned lumber /Ed

 

[Art Caputo]

From my experience with LRB’s exclusively, high velocity//large velocity (<40-50 yards), has been that at the closer ranges high velocity usually results in major expansion of the ball, large wound channels, and full penetration or the expanded or fragmented ball just under the far hide. At the longer ranges,
(+50-60 yards) I’ve frequently seen full penetration, and smaller wound channels, indicating less expansion.…..Whether 50cal or 58 cal, an initial velocity difference of 300FPS will end up with an approximate 100 FPS difference by 100 yards….Killing power being more influenced by caliber size then by initial muzzle velocity. There is not a material difference in trajectory under these conditions. My loads for 45-58 caliber are designed to deliver 800-1100FPS at 100 yards. If I desire more killing power(larger game), particularly at the longer distances I increase the caliber.
The following chart are my 45-58 cal hunting loads, delivering 100FPS at 100 yards. You can see the difference in MV vs 100 yard velocity. You can also see the energy difference at 100 yards. I have include the TKO which is the Taylor Knock Out Value([diameter x weight x velocity] / 7000) which emphasizes the effect of projectile weight and diameter….considered to be a more viable comparison over the traditional Energy formula. Also shown is a chart showing the fall-off in velocity at distance of a 50 cal, but the similar effect occurs regardless of caliber size.

 

[mnbearbaiter]

I shoot ffg T7 so I'm pretty sure I don't have unburned powder in my 36" brrl? Especially considering much shorter 26-30" brrls get extreme velocity from those *@line guns.