Very frustrating range experience with my flintlock

[Rockrivr1]

This past weekend will be my third time to the range with my Shenandoah Flintlock. The first two times were great and I can see that my groups are getting smaller. This last time though I couldn't get the rifle to function properly at all. After my second time at the range I cleaned the bbl using a bronze brush and patches with Break Free. The typical stuff I clean my modern rifles with. After I was done cleaning I ran a number of dry patches to make sure the bbl wasn't wet. The same thing I did after I cleaned it from the first time at the range.

Right from the start I had problems. I got great ignition from the pan using the same 3F powder I used in the bbl, but the gun would not fire. I had to pull the first two balls as I couldn't get the rifle to shoot. I used a pick to clean out the vent hole and still nothing. I used my bronze brush to clean the bbl more all the way down and used the pick to make sure the hole was still open. After loading the third shot it finally went off. But failed to fire again on the fourth shot.

By this time I was completely frustrated as I had to pull the fourth ball as I couldn't get the main charge to fire. I once again used the bronze brush (dry) to see if I could scrap out anything that may cause the problem. As I was pulling it out, the brush came loose from it's threads and was now lodged half way up in the bbl. Ok, I'm a patient person so I threaded the cork screw type patch puller thinking I could hook the brush and pull it out. It started to work. That is until that pulled away from it's thread as well. (Damn cheap Track of the Wolf crap) At this point I'd lost all patience and used the ball puller to see if I could somehow grab the two devices that were now stuck in my bbl. This worked. The threads from the ball puller lodged into the cork screw piece and I was able to pull it out.

After a few minutes of calming down, I load another charge, patch and ball. Prime the pan, pull the trigger. There a nice flash from the pan and then ----------- NOTHING!!!! :cursing: That was it. Couldn't take it any more. Pulled the ball and patch, dumped the powder, threw the rifle in the back of the truck and went home. All the way I'm thinking to myself, "why the hell am I trying to learn these damned rifles". :surrender:

Ok, yes, this has turned into a rant. Apologies Not ready to give up, but am completely stumped as to why this happened. Going to clean it again and see if maybe I missed something.

 

[Ken Morrison]

I know there are much more experienced shooters on this forum then me but I'll offer my thoughts. Try to find a local shooter or club to help you solve the problems since shooting a flintlock is best learned with someone coaching you.

Have you made sure the barrel is clean of all oils and solvents? Try a little alcohol on a patch to swab the barrel, and lock parts before loading. Most of old shooters are very careful not to use patrolium products in a flintlock.

Perhaps the flash hole is too small. Many shooters mention using a 1/16 inch drill to open the hole a little.

You could try 4F powder since it ignites faster.

Have you checked your flint and fizzen to make sure you are getting lots of hot sparks?

Is your powder dry?

Good luck.

 

[biliff]

Not sure what kind of breeching system your rifle has, but off hand I'd say there's some kind of foreign material in there keeping the main charge from getting down to the vent. Piece of a patch or maybe just sludge.

 

[Rancocas]

First off, get rid of the breakfree. I use it, too, on my modern guns, but NOT in muzzleloaders. I think the stuff will just make goo with the blackpowder residue. (There is plenty of info on this site about proper cleaning methods for muzzleloaders)
Second, you mentioned a bronze brush. All of those that I've seen have a little tip on the end where the wire extends a little past the brush part. If yours is like that then you're not getting the cleaning action all the way down on the face of the breech plug. You're probably missing enough to plug the touchhole.
Third; Are you using real blackpowder? In a flintlock, real blackpowder is what you want. The synthetics don't work too well. (So, I've been told. I've never used anything except real blackpowder.)
Fourth; I'm not familiar with your brand of rifle. Some have a little chamber recessed into the face of the breechplug. (I can't imagine why any company would do that.) These are hard to get clean, and easy to get blocked up.

So, it sounds to me that you have an oily goo residue covering the face of the breechplug which sometimes (often) gets in the way of the touchhole.
:hatsoff:

 

[ZUG]

Well, my 2 cents --- get rid of that bronze bore brush and find a proper size jag for the bore diameter. Take the barrel out of the stock if you can and (if not no big deal) plug the vent hole. Fill it with water -tap, warm, cold, fancy bottle water, water with a drop of dish soap - as long as it is water not oil nor modern firearm cleaning solvent. Let sit 5 min. then run a correct size patch on the jag up & down first 12" then 18" to 24". Then change the water, then more up & down with a new patch. If you have the barrel out of the stock remove the vent plug and place the breech end into a pail of water and again with a new patch run it up and down the full lenght of the barrel. When the patch comes out clean - you are done - now dry the heck out of it, protect the bore with Ballistol. Go back with a clean patch in 3 days - up & down - check the patch - put more Ballistol on a clean patch again up & down. Now you can leave it alone until the next time you go shooting. The night before you go shooting clean out the bore of Ballistol real good. Go shooting- swab between shots with a damp/moist patch on the jag, load, shoot, repeat etc, etc, etc. Then before you leave the range swab the bore with a little more than a damp/moist patch on the jag. when you get home you will only need to do 1/3rd of the work you originally done to clean the bore. What I am getting at here is you were just building up crud and pushing it down to and blocking the vent hole - the more you shot the worst it got. Water is the best to use to remove fouling from black powder. Cleanlyness is next to Godlyness when it comes to flintlocks!

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

.........I cleaned the bbl using a bronze brush and patches with Break Free. The typical stuff I clean my modern rifles with......

Get rid of the Break Free and the bronze brush. Use water to clean. Hot, cold, makes no difference. You are building up a lot of crud in the barrel and your problems are due to bad cleaning as suggested by others. Do a search for cleaning and you will get more advice than you can shake a stick at. Good luck with getting the barrel clean, look at the bright side, you have learned to use your ball puller, you'll need that the first time you dry ball.... and you will. :wink:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Stop using the Break Free on your barrel. Soap and water will dissolve Black Powder residue. You should not need to use a bore brush, or a scraper( flat ended tool that fits in your ramrod to scrape the face of the breechplug) for normal cleaning.

Are you using Black Powder? What grade? What brand? If not, you are trying to get a flintlock to fire a NON-Black Powder sugstitute, and those substitutes are NOT DESIGNED FOR USE IN FLINTLOCKS. For one, their flashpoints are more than 300 degrees hotter than that of BP.

YOu need to use a vent pick when something like this happens, to dig a hole into the stuff that won't burn. If the vent is located right against, or even in the ********, and kind of oil residue will cake powder there, and keep it wet enough that it won't fire.

You have to use a good cleaning Jag, ( It must fit the inside of your barrel well) with a good cotton cleaning patch to DRY the barrel any time you clean it, on the range or at home. Also, when the gun has been stored for any length of time, standing on its butt, expect to have oil down on the ******** face, congealing into a gooey, greasy mess. Only Alcohol will dilute that stuff, and dissolve it so it can come out of the barrel. I suspect that your break free was creating this kind of goo in the bottom of the barrel.

TIP: If you are storing a ML rifle for any time, put it muzzle down, so any excess oils come out the muzzle. Put down a rag, newspapers, or paper towels to collect the oil so you don't mess up your floors, or cause a slip hazard at home. The same advice goes for modern shotguns and rifles, too.

As has been mentioned, a bore brush cannot get down to scrape out all the crud, so you have been using the wrong tool for the job.

Oh, I pour a quantity of isopropyl alcohol down the barrel, put my thumb over the muzzle, and a fingertip over the vent hole, and shake the alcohol back and forth as I would shake a jiggler for mixed drinks at the bar. Let the alcohol sit for a bit at the bottom, and then give it a second shaking. Then pour it out the muzzle. Run a clean patch down to see what else comes out. If a bore light does not shine back at you, repeat the process until it does. I have had to plug a barrel and leave it sitting over night with alcohol in it, with the muzzle plugged also, to dissolve long standing crud, but by morning, the stuff is dissolved, and does come out. Don't rush cleaning your gun, for that reason.

Most rifling has a clockwise, or right hand twist to it. When you run any jag, or brush down the barrel, be turning the rod clockwise to make the jag and patch and threaded ends follow the rifling, and not work against it. When you pull the rod out, the clockwise rotation will not be trying to turn the rod counterclockwise, fighting against your hand, and that will keep the jag or brush securely screwed into the ramrod tip. Some men find it easier to you their left hand when running the rod down the barrel, as the natural tendency is to turn the hand inward, which creates that clockwise or right hand movement needed to keep the jag from unscrewing. Use the right hand to put the rod back out of the barrel.

If you are going to learn a lesson from this experience it is that cleaning your gun properly is as important as how you load it each time. Hoppes makes a Black Powder cleaning fluid and patch lube which works very well in removing the crud. And under Member resources, you will find Stumpy( Stumpkiller)'s Moose juice recipe for a patch lube,/solvent. Some people try to make a solvent and patch lubricant in one deal; others make them separate compounds. Try them all. Its all part of learning what works best in your gun, and in the climate where you shoot.

 

[Rockrivr1]

Thanks everyone for the advise. I was using Schuetzen 3F BP in my rifle. After reading your posts I'm pretty sure the Breakfree is my problem. I'll be trying a form of water method at this point and alcholol to try and clean it out. I haven't yet taken the bbl out yet, but I think that will be my first step. I'll also do a search on cleaning. I'm sure I'll find all kinds of good advise.

 

[Zonie]

A fouled bore will not keep a flintlock from firing. Running a bronze bore brush down a fouled bore can though.
The brush will knock off the fouling and sometimes places this debris right in the touch hole which effectively shields the main powder charge from the flash in the pan.
IMO, you should only wipe the bore with a moistened patch on a cleaning jag. The moisture not only devolves the fouling but causes it to stick to the patch so that it is removed from the bore.

As was mentioned, if your touch hole is smaller than a 1/16 inch diameter drill bit, use the bit to inlarge it. If your gun is a .50 caliber or larger a 5/64 (.078) diameter drill bit will improve ignition even more although the increased leakage of gas thru the larger hole can reduce the velocity of the shot.

It may help your guns reliability if you pick the vent before loading the powder. This assures that the vent is open which allows the new powder to find its way to the hole as you ram the patched ball.

As you were having good flashes of the priming powder, there is no need to go to the finer 4F powder. Also, do not use 4F powder for a main powder charge as it will create excessive breech pressures.

 

[No Powder]

Had a problem like yours once, it turned out I grabbed the wrong powder horn one that had Pyodex in it. Stayed up all night and it finaly dawned on me what was wrong. :grin: You probably are smarter then I was and don't even have any of that stuff around. Hope your next outing is a good one.

 

[mmahlock]

Having the same model gun I believe that I have the answer to your problem. It lies in understanding the design of the breach.

This drawing is an unscaled rough image of your breach. The gray areas are metal the white areas have no metal. The muzzle is to the right and the transverse area that extends to the edge of the barrel is where your touch hole liner is located (the closure slug that is drilled and tapped for the touch hole liner is not shown for clarity). The ball and powder are seated on the concave end of the breach which is the gray area from the left side inside the barrel. The problem is in the longitudinal channel that runs from the false breach to the breach. Oil, grease, and/or moisture in this area catches and prevents the powder from getting into the breach. There are two solutions:

1 - after cleaning thoroughly clean and dry the breach and the channel and then while shooting rig up a Q-tip so you can run it through the channel after each shot.

2 - Take the gun to a gun maker and have him remove the breach and bore out the diameter of the channel so it is at least twice what ever size it currently is. Once the breach is reinstalled, it and the barrel can be tapped for a larger outer diameter touch hole liner. Note: There will most likely be a metal slug driven into the breach channel that has been drilled and tapped for the touch hole liner. Remove this slug before trying to unscrew the breach. Failure to do so will result in damage to the breach threads in the barrel and the destruction of the breach. This will require the making of a new breach from scratch and repairing the threads in the barrel.

The design of this breach system requires that the touch hole liner be removed each time the gun is cleaned otherwise the breach will fill up with fouling and rust and eventually become useless if you clean with water because you can't get at it effectively any other way.

For those of you that rail against the practice of removing touch hole liners. It is designs like this that make this practice necessary.

 

[nchawkeye]

Whoever designed the breach like that needs to be tied to a tree and have 80grs of FF shot about a foot from his 'nads...

Why can't these guys realize that these guns were designed properly in the first place???

 

[F.G. Ford]

All of the suggestions are great!
BUT! Before you load for your shoot.
Load a blank load in your barrel, no patch, no ball...just powder, make sure your powder is all the way down to the breech.Keeping your barrel pointed upwards, prime your pan...try a shot.
If it does not go off, at least you don't have to pull a ball & patch, if it does you're ready for the day.
Percussion, or flint, I always try a blank charge, plus your barrel is fouled for your first shot anyway.
Old Ford :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Sorry, Old Ford, but if the inside if that breechplug is as described by Sir Michael, shooting off a blank charge is more likely to foul that powder chamber, and the flash chanel. Better to clear the chamber of oils with alcohol, let it evaporate, and THEN load the barrel with a real charge, and fire it into the target backstop to foul the barrel for that " first shot".

I don't like those designs, particularly in flintlocks. Flintlocks were designed correctly, back when, and they don't need someone trying to reinvent them. Its bad enough for a flint gun to need to burn its way from the priming charge into the main charge, through a vent hole. But, in this design, it then has to make a right turn, and go through a small, narrow, channel to reach the powder. Unless you are using FFFg powder, so that some of it will flow through a clean, empty flash channel to get back all the way to that right angled channel to the vent, There is NO way you are going to get ignition in a flintlock . Even as it is, and if everything works correctly, in a clean barrel, the ignition will be slower than it should be.

This is the direct result of someone thinking that the same design technology that works in a percussion action rifle, will work in a flintlock action rifle. They are wrong. They don't understand the differences in the two very different ignition systems. As it is, this design is actually closer to the ignition system design for modern cartridge rifles, and not even percussion guns. This design can also give fits to percussion shooters, when the barrel is NOT cleaned properly. And It is also being used for those unmentionable Zip Guns we don't discuss here.

About the only thing about this design I can enjoy is that I got a call from a good friend a couple of years back. His son came home from college the night before Opening day of deer season, got up after a couple of hours of sleep, grabbed one of those unmentionables out of the gun safe, and went out to await daylight to shoot his first deer. The sun came up, the deer arrived, and he pulled the trigger. NOTHING! The gun absolutely refused to fire. The deer finally tired and walked back into the woods. It seems the gun had sat a whole year in the gun safe, muzzle up, and oil that was put down the barrel to preserve it, and prevent rusting, had congealed in that narrow flash channel, plugging it, so that no amount of shotgun primers fired off would get the gun to shoot. MY friend tore the gun apart, and found the congealed mess. Then he had a long talk with his son about cleaning guns left in storage, before trying to shoot them. He called to ask me if I thought anything else was to blame for the gun failing to fire. He test fired it with several shots that day, and it fired like a champ. I don't know if his son got a deer that weekend or not.

 

[Zonie]

Well, the ***** that designed that breech is long dead.
That, gentlemen is very close to what a real "Patent Breech" looks like and it was designed by Nock in 1887. By the year, you may correctly guess that it was designed for use in Flintlock firearms.

There is nothing wrong with the design as long as you know what your dealing with and adjust your loading/cleaning procedures to accommodate it.

 

[Moloch]

Once I had one rifle with the same problem you described, I sold it but came later to the conclusion that the patch lube caused all the misfires. Its is really important that a big part of the lube for the patches is water. All kind of oils, grease and equal thick stuff is really sticky once it was vaporized from the heat of the burning powder. When you load the next charge and ball all the sticky stuff inside the barrel gets pushed down to the chamber and will mess up ignition. Lubes with a lot of water in them really vaporize and get out of the barrel with much less residue - and much better ignition. :v

And please dont throw the gun around, to 99% of such problems are caused by a bad combination of patch lubrication/patch/ball/powder. :hmm::wink:

 

[J.D.]

Allot has already been said, so I will be brief.

Breakfree is a great bore preservative, but it is not a black powder cleaner. Plain water or soap and water for cleaning. Dry well and coat the bore with breakfree. Like Paul said, let the rifle stand upright for a coupla hours then store it muzzle down to allow excess oil to drain.

Breakfree is designed to prevent carbon deposits, so it works well as a ML bore preservative. However, I do suggest that you swab it out with an alcohol saturated patch prior to loading the first shot.

 

[roundball]

"Patent Breech".........designed by Nock in 1887. By the year, you may correctly guess that it was designed for use in Flintlock firearms.

I believe Nock's Patent Breech was invented at least 100 years before that...

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Greener gives a date of 1787.

 

[roundball]

Yeah, I've seen 1757, 1787, etc...but definitely in the 1700's