Wad or grease?

[Dave Rosenthal]

I've won too many competitions to stop using Ox-Yoke Wonder-Wads. In the winter I schmere a little more bore butter on them & store them in 35mm film canisters to stay wet. In the summer, I generally use them as-is, right outta the foil pouch.

Using the wads on top of the powder charge does everything Necchi says it does.

As the Country's first NRA Qualified Distinguished Expert in Muzzleloading Pistol, I can tell you I don't think it's possible to obtain the same level of reliability in applying bore butter over-top of the balls. And all of that greasy mess leads to grip issues, which in-turn make your groups open-up drastically IMHO! If yer just lookin' to spit lead, makin' a greasy mess is O-K I guess. If yer tryin' to score 80+ points on a 50 yard slow-fire pistol target, well, 50 yards with a greasy handle is a HUGE problem!

Dave

 

[FishDFly]

Wad or grease?

I get to shoot next to some of the High Master pistols shooters in the country and have learned some things from them.

Most use 3F.

Most use either corn meal (which compresses)
or Cream of Wheat (which does not
compress) on top of the powder.

Seat a ball which will shave a nice round
ring when seated. Very few load on the
pistol, all use a loading stand to seat the
ball and load the cylinder.

The ball needs to be just short of the face
of the cylinder so that it will spin when in
the pistol when the ball is seated.

All use a home made concoction of grease,
What works at 40 degrees does not work at 95
degrees. Crisco is for cooking food not
shooting.

If it is a pistol made overseas, throw away
the nipples and call TOW and get the correct
nipples and caps.

Chain fire comes from the back of the
cylinder not the front, don't care what you
have read on the .www.

If you really want to learn to shoot pistols, get the following:

The Pistol Shooter's Treasury by Gil Hebard. It's about modern pistol shooting, but holes in targets are holes in targets, it does work.

 

[smoothshooter]

I will try that.

 

[Ray-Vigo]

I've gone to using both. I shot using the lubed wad without any grease for awhile, and it worked ok. I noticed I could get 1 to 2 more cylinders of fire without having to disassemble and clean when I started using grease in combo with the wad. I use Thompson Center Bore Butter over the balls. So I use the wad to help move the ball closer to the forcing cone, then the grease to help give me the extra 6-12 shots without having to break down the gun. This is all on a '51 Uberti Colt Navy in .36 cal.

 

[nkbj]

To all,
If you haven't seen a flash over chain fire caused by forgetting to grease in front of the balls then you haven't seen one yet.
Using a filler and/or a greased wad stuck in the already limited powder space can also provide a barrier to prevent flash over. That's a matter of what you are using the revolver for.
The grease in front of the balls gets blown around. Depending on the grease, the powder, the climate, the model of revolver, it can help delay the cylinder from getting difficult to turn.
Remember that your experiences are yours, applicable to there, to your equipment. Not universal absolutes.

 

[azmntman]

I had a flash over in 1978 with a brass frame 1858. Don't recall the facts but it was a shocker I recall that! I'm thinking three loads went off. I didn't load heavy though so it stayed in the hand, scraped up the side of the frame a bit. Shot it a year or two more and sold it to a buddy in 1980. A boxed set with mold (which I never used, capper, tin etc.

 

[swathdiver]

To all,
If you haven't seen a flash over chain fire caused by forgetting to grease in front of the balls then you haven't seen one yet.

Nope. All my chambers are miked and checked for roundness and only loaded with balls that are at least .004 over chamber diameter and shave a ring of lead.

I have shot with grease over the ball, wads and nothing at all.

In addition, pinched caps will not be used, either they fit the cones or they don't go on.

 

[crockett]

We all have to operate within our own comfort zones but powder under a heavy, lubed wonder wad (the wad should be slightly wider than the chamber and stuffed in)and then a tight fitting ball. A chain fire from the front seems highly unlikely. If you need maximum charges of powder, then you can eliminate the wad and use the space for powder. In that case you have to grease the area in front of the ball. I used Crisco for years- cheap. In hot weather it will melt and run and even after a few shots the Crisco in the remaining chambers may burn out. SO....if you omit the wad and use a maximum charge (and field carry is the only reason I can think of for this) then you need a "better than Crisco" lube. I think Civil War General Robert E. Lee used sealing wax. His Colt Navy had some sort of red wax and most folks figure the only available red wax would have been red sealing wax used for orders, etc.
7 years after Lee died the Colt was fired and all chambers went off okay (according to the Museum of the Confederacy in Richmond). I don't know how long the gun had been loaded, if it was still from the War days. In any event get a good lube/seal if you are going to carry such a load.

 

[M. De Land]

I switching over to felt wads soaked in SPG lube instead of Crisco on the chamber mouths for target work as I feel it is more consistent. Mike D.

 

[swathdiver]

My own testing has shown that my Pietta Remington NMA shoots much tighter groups with a wad than with grease over the ball. I prefer the GOB approach, but for accuracy, the .480 wads made from Durofelt lubed with a 5 parts Mutton Tallow, 4 parts Beeswax and 1 part Olive Oil mix. Last mix was 5-3-1.

My lube over ball mix does not drip in Florida weather, and holds for every chamber until fired. It's a 6-1-3 or 6-1-2 mix and is used for the sixguns that are kept ready for action. Even after being loaded for months, they go BANG! every time.

 

[crockett]

Yep, I don't know where this notion got started about percussion guns not being reliable if loaded for a long time. If the ball shaves lead- the fit in the chamber has to be as good as that of any lead bullet seated in a brass case. At the other end, if the nipple and cap match correctly, that fit is about the same as a primer set into a brass case. On the powder, the powder in the chamber is about as dry as stored in a flask. Why shouldn't the gun fire even if loaded for a long time? IMHO percussion revolvers are very dependable.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I am not a proponent of believing a tight ball will protects from chain fires.
Over ball grease is the most common approach. I used it for a long time. But, it is messy. Later went to waxed felt wads and those are great. They do cut down on max charge possible but that is seldom needed.
I am of the always sealschool of safety.

 

[pargent]

This reply is aimed at no one in particular ,but mainly those who are new to Cap and Ball revolvers. Now Iam only talking about the front of the cylinder and nothing else .The two fire seals under debate are as follows .
1 . grease over ball.
the grease is a semi solid ,either made from natural products or from a petrochemical base or a blend , the grease is affected by temperature either ambient or from ignition and combustion .
2. the fit of the ball in the chamber.
the relationship of the ball to the side of the chamber is as follows ,the chamber is steel a hard metal the ball is lead a soft metal , when a correct size ball is pressed by mechanical means into the chamber , the chamber retains it's sizeings , but the ball being softer either squishes down to the diameter of the chamber or shaves off the over size portion and squeases into the chamber .This is now what is called a basic mechanical seal, because both metals do not suffer from a change of state (turn from solid to a semi solid or liquid )this basic mechanical seal is also a very effective fireseal during the ignition process .
My thoughts on this are based on many years of shooting these revolvers and my very extensive back ground and employment in technical ,mechanical fields .
I suspect that those experienced shooters who support the grease theory have in fact been loading correct sized balls all along , not by accident but by following correct loading procedures for all this time and cudos to them for their diligence .

 

[Steve Grentus]

I have used both wads and bore butter/Crisco over the balls and prefer just the wads. Makes a little less of a mess :wink:

gh

 

[Rifleman1776]

You are correct about the squishing business.
But :shocked2: I have seen ungreased "squished" loading chain fire. Why and how is not understood but it happens. Always grease or seal with a wad.

 

[pargent]

Well solving problems like this is very very easy , there are two possible reasons that this would happen .
1. loose caps
2. the balls used were not very well cast , or the sprew was to the side when loaded .

 

[smoothshooter]

IMHO wads do little or nothing to prevent chain fires, and are good for lubrication only. Find a transparent chamber diameter tube of some kind, and close off one end. Pour in some powder, and seat your wad of choice and bullet. This ball may have to be slightly smaller than what you normally shoot, since the tubing will not be strong enough to shave lead. Now look at the wad. See how it has cupped around the backside of the ball, and the edge of the wad no longer uniformly contacts the inner surface of the tube, and provides minimal or no sealing. If a very thick, soft wad is used, this situation improves somewhat, but introduces another set of potential problems that may not be acceptable to the shooter.

 

[svenskenH]

thanks all of ya for the info about pros and cons with both wads and grease!

 

[Darto]

Gatofeo believes that chainfires are not caused by flames coming in from the front of the cylinder, but from the back. Thus neither wads nor grease over the ball is going to help much at all (according to Gatofeo).

Attention to the the back of the cylinder is what he sees as most helpful. Leave a loaded cylinder uncapped (or one falls off when another cylinder is shot) is his chief culprit as are ill fitting caps.
http://tinyurl.com/ogcgamu

 

[Darto]

Here is someone who did a test to try and deleberately induce chainfires from the front of the cylinder:
http://www.svartkrutt.net/articles/vis.php?id=13