Wads Pushing Thru Pattern

[BS]

You hear about wads blowing thru the pattern, this is proof.......The coin paper wad opened up OK, just the Nitro, lubed and dry wad punched thru the target and backer at 25 yds.

I have been reading past posts and have found several people using only lubed felt wads and no nitro [ over the powder] cards.

I tried two wads with no OTPC and the recoil was weak and the pattern was blown.

I tried 5 over the shot cads and had poor results also, but need to try them again with the coin wrappers.

Best advice so far is just use more shot in an open choked barrel! :shocked2:

 

[Rebel]

Looks like a nice pattern though. 14 or more shot in killing areas. Not bad.

 

[jdixon]

I am in the process of working uploads (again), really doing it systematically this time, trying everything. Not through yet but one thing I have noted, a full sized Ox-Yoke or Circle Fly vegetable fiber wad (which is about 3/4" thick) will not give you near as nice a pattern as that same wad cut in half will do. The cut cushion wad even out performed felt wads. Both of these were atop an over powder hard card. My next afternoon of shooting will be with paper shot cups like you were doing. When I get done running these tests, and tired of counting all of those holes, I will post the spreadsheet of the non-scientific test.

 

[Dave K]

I agree with Rebel! Hard to fault that pattern, at least by me!

 

[wtilenw]

Are you sure the wads punched through the pattern or just hit the target too?
Idaho PRB

 

[BS]

Are you sure the wads punched through the pattern or just hit the target too?
Idaho PRB

Good question, wish I new the answer. They may just follow, but some of the earler talk led me to believe that the wadding tends to push thru the shot and distort it.

What do you think, does it follow or pass into and thru?

 

[Rebel]

If any of the wads are heavier than the individual pellets, wouldn't they pass the pellets and push through the pattern? I think that is why VM Starr suggested using just thin overshot wads over the powder too, instead of heavy over powder wads and thick fiber cushion wads. What you think?

 

[BS]

If any of the wads are heavier than the individual pellets, wouldn't they pass the pellets and push through the pattern? I think that is why VM Starr suggested using just thin overshot wads over the powder too, instead of heavy over powder wads and thick fiber cushion wads. What you think?

I am usually in trouble, for not THINKING! :rotf:

I may try some of the over the shot cards for over the powder wads and still use the wads.
The Lubed wad really works great, might even cut Xs into the wads to help the fly apart.

The over shot cards are much lighter, and if I can get them to hold together, they may help.

 

[Russianblood]

I've been soaking my fiber cushion wads in Stumpkiller Moose Milk and I can see they are being blown apart when they come out of the barrel and don't go down range. Plus the lube cleans my barrel very well with every loading. :thumbsup:

Thanks for the constant updates on your progress BS! I've been following it closely for ideas for my trade gun.

 

[Dave K]

If I use a full fiber cushion it will make a "donut" pattern and stick in the target. But I cut my fiber cushions in at least 1/2(1/4"thick) and then I don't have that problem. I lube mine with olive oil. For tighter patterns, like for turkey I use just two over powder cards. Yes, the barrel will have fouling in it, but how many shots you going to get on a turkey? For clay and doves,I have shot through 4lbs of 1oz. loads and never had a problem reloading with my olive oiled cushions using Goex or Schuetzen 2F powder.

 

[musketman]

If any of the wads are heavier than the individual pellets, wouldn't they pass the pellets and push through the pattern? What you think?

True, but the wads offers more wind resistance and should slow down faster...

I believe the wad could blow holes through a pattern within the first few yards as it is propelled by the blast, then blows through the pattern a second time as it slows down and the pellets over-take and pass the wind resistant wad... :hmm:

On the other hand, the wad is large enough to knock the turkey out cold, should the pellets miss... :haha:

 

[Black Hand]

The over shot cards are much lighter, and if I can get them to hold together, they may help.

Why would you want them to hold together? It seems that they would affect your pattern less if they didn't. Their light weight would allow them to fall away quicker and not interfere. I use 2 thin cards over the powder and 1 over the shot and have never had any problems with a blown-through pattern or the cards hitting the target.

 

[GrayBear]

I've done a lot of shotgun patterning, both ML and Center Fire and I agree with Dave K. about the doughnut pattern when a wad blows through the shot. When I look at that turkey pattern I'd figure the wad punched through after the shot had hit.

BTW, that's a very good pattern! WOW!

GrayBear

 

[CoyoteJoe]

If any of the wads are heavier than the individual pellets, wouldn't they pass the pellets and push through the pattern? What you think?

True, but the wads offers more wind resistance and should slow down faster...

I believe Musketman has nailed it, sort of. Of course the wads are heavier than individual pellets. One fiber wad in 28 gauge weighs 10 grains, about the same as eight #8 pellets. But those #8 pellets will fly over 200 yards. How far will the wad fly? The difference is density, no fiber wad is as dense as lead, so it slows much more quickly.
If the wad disrupts the pattern at all, it occurs right at the muzzle. It is the length, not the weight of the wad column that is to blame. As the shot column exits the muzzle and is no longer supported by the barrel walls, the wad column is still in the bore and still being pushed by high pressure powder gasses. Thus the unsupported shot column is disrupted by the continued push on its rear while air resistance holds back the front.
Shortening the wad column is bound to help. V.M. Starr was right in saying you cannot get better patterns than those with just two overpowder wads. Hard cardboard overpowder wads are actually more dense than the fiber wad but don't disrupt the pattern so much because they are much shorter.
The only use for a fiber wad is to hold lube, and there are other ways to keep fouling soft. I seat the card wads atop the powder, drop the shot, then squirt a bit of liquid lube or even a dab of paste lube inside the muzzle before seating the overshot card. In that way, I can shoot several dozen founds without difficulty.:grin:

 

[The Baron]

I've done a lot of shotgun patterning, both ML and Center Fire and I agree with Dave K. about the doughnut pattern when a wad blows through the shot. When I look at that turkey pattern I'd figure the wad punched through after the shot had hit.

GrayBear coined my thought as well. And it IS a very nice pattern! Can you share the gun/load info with us?

 

[J.D.]

Why use two wads? My bess shoots very well with only one .135 card wad, over powder, with NO fiber wad. I get good consistent patterns at 30 yards with no holes.

If the pattern is a doughnut, the powder charge is too heavy, or the shot charge is too light...or both.
J.D.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

Just because you can find wad debris near the muzzle doesn't mean they are NECESSARILY not affecting your pattern.

I was testing some shot-protectors one day that was maybe -3 - -5C (mid-20s F) and snowing lightly. My normal wad column was 3-4 overshot cards (depends what I made them from) and a 1/4" crisco-soaked fiber cushion (shoot-all-day combination in my rough bores). I found the fiber wad shreds on the snow out to maybe 5-7yds, and thought "Cool - that's how fast they fall apart!"

But I was getting improbably inconsistent patterns. I was frustrated and puzzled, but finally started thinking about the temperaure, and for my last few shots, tried some lightly-oiled boot-liner-felt cushions I had with me. BINGO! The patterns were back to what I had expected, and consistent. I had to reshoot the whole set of tests another time but I had learned that cushion wads that worked fine in warmer temperatures were hard & dense enough to blow patterns when below freezing, even though they obviously still fell apart near the muzzle in the cold.

I figure that just edge-lubing the 1/4" fiber wads will likely work in the cold while still keeping the fouling soft enough, but I haven't had the opportunity to test it yet.

Joel

 

[BS]

Sorry to have neglected you all, but the power is down in MI till Sunday.....so I drove to Nebraska for a better connection. :rotf:

My comment about the over wads staying together, is that they tend to be destroyed at the blast. :winking:

I was also using the second fiber wad to keep the shot cup from soaking up all the lube, but that may not be a bad thing. :grin:

And where I really meesed up, was posting my best picture, I should have posted one of the many blown ones, but they are back in MI.

Now that I have a good shooting coin [shot] column, I will try using a shorter wad column.

I will post some of my blown pictures......when the power get turned back on. Big Ice Storm!

 

[Toomuch_36]

Are you sure the wads punched through the pattern or just hit the target too?
Idaho PRB

Good question, wish I new the answer. They may just follow, but some of the earler talk led me to believe that the wadding tends to push thru the shot and distort it.

What do you think, does it follow or pass into and thru?

Without proof one way or the other I think in this case I would go along with the following theory. If the wads and card had blown a hole through the shot pattern you would have seen a large hole in the center (from the wad) with a big haloe of empty space and a larger haloe of shot around that. I have seen this happen numerous times with modern hand loaded shot shells using exceptionaly hot loads, but I believe at black powder velosities it would be very unlikely.

Toomuch
...........
Shoot Flint

 

[pmwest]

I’m having a hard time with the concept of wads traveling through the shot string. Card wads would loose momentum and drop out of the shot string almost immediately outside the bore. Cushion wads or plastic shot cups have enough weight and momentum to travel 30 yards or more but wind resistance and weight have them well behind the shot string at target impact. If the overshot were too thick and heavy the shot string could strike it on the way to the target and might cause poor patterns. I suspect that too much powder in the load column causes most bad patterns. Hot gases and flame blowing by the overpowder and cushion wads in the bore or getting into the shot string just as it leaves the barrel will destroy the pattern.