Wads Pushing Thru Pattern

[CoyoteJoe]

EXACTLY! :hatsoff:

 

[musketman]

I’m having a hard time with the concept of wads traveling through the shot string.

Maybe we're looking at the wrong wad/card that is making the hole in the pattern...

The over-shot card is the only one in front of the shot, so it would have a chance to effect the pattern...

The over-shot card would be traveling through the shot string as it goes from in front of to the rear of the shot string, assuming it isn't completely obliterated by the shot...

 

Seems strange to me that when one picks up a muzzle loader they automaticlly disregard the past 100 years of shotgun ammo research.

This is not a muzzleloading problem, it continued into cartridge development as a problem for almost 100 years. It was not cured intil the development of modern polymers.

The problem of donut shaped patterns used to plauge us on the skeet and trap ranges and in the hunting field well into the 1960s and then disipeared with an amazing innovation

THE STAR CRIMP

That star crimp on modern shotgun shells was developed to eliminate the need for overshot wads and the donut shaped patterns that had plauged shotgunners from the development of gunpowder!

If you get into the archives of the library and find some of the old magazine articles you will find the writers praising the "new ammunition miricle" that finally cured the problem of the donut shaped pellet pattern.

The offending wad is over the pellets, not over the powder. Ask Federal, Remington Peters or Winchester.

 

[Java Man]

So then what's the fix for us? I'm waiting on my 20ga smoothie, and would like to use the avaialble info to a speedier load development.

Thank you,

Java Man

 

[Dave K]

I wasn't shooting shotguns before star crimps, but I do roll crimp several 1000 short chambered 12(2 5/8") shells a year to use in my short chambered SxS guns. I have never had a problem with the over shot card. It is another process in the manufacturing of these shells, that I am sure that the manufactures were glad to get away from. My donut patterns were caused by the cushions being too heavy. Once I cut them down to about 1/4" thick, it stopped being a problem.Of course your experience my vary.

 

[Java Man]

I was planning to go right to:
1. More shot than powder.
2. Overpowder card, followed by 1/2 cushion wad.

These ideas came from this board. :thumbsup:

Java Man

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I'd suggest you skip the "cushion" wad. They are really just filler wads to provide a way of filling the space in shotshells so that various loads could all fill the same shell to the same height. They are not needed in a muzzleloader. Load two hard card overpowder wads, 1/8" thick, drop the shot and seat a thin overshot card. The only real use for 1/2" fiber wads is to carry lube and that can be done by just squirting a bit down the bore after the overpowder cards are seated and before the overshot card.

 

[CrackStock]

BS,

What gauge was that?

Can you give us the load -- that actually does not look bad to me.

I was using 60 grains 3f Goex, 1 over powder and a half of a Crisco lubed cushion wad with 65 grains of shot wrapped in 2 layers of thin department store bag (Big twist down and short twist up) secured by one overshot wad.

This was a 20 gauge.

I was taking game and peppering cans well with it, but need to look at it more carefully on paper.

CS

 

[BS]

BS,

What gauge was that?

Can you give us the load -- that actually does not look bad to me.

I was using 60 grains 3f Goex, 1 over powder and a half of a Crisco lubed cushion wad with 65 grains of shot wrapped in 2 layers of thin department store bag (Big twist down and short twist up) secured by one overshot wad.

This was a 20 gauge.

I was taking game and peppering cans well with it, but need to look at it more carefully on paper.

CS

It is a rather large bore,.............a 7ga.

My usual load is 170FF, but I backed of to 150 and the pattern was better.

I am shooting copper plated #6s.

I started with 170-170 [powder-shot] and went back to 150-170.............then to 150-220 then 150-250, then tried 150-300.........that is what the above picture is.............

It might be a bit too..........much shot in the air! :rotf: :rotf:

But the pattern is OK.

I started to hone a jug choke in the beast, 3 sets of 220 grit stones and I have .005 choke.

But.............the 220 load is about as dense as the 300, so there is an improvement! :grin:

From my last shooting and information that has been posted, I now believe that it is the overcard that is the hole making culprit! :winking:

I would like to open the choke diameter up to .030, but will probably settle for .015.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I don't know why you enjoy beating your shoulder to death? 170 grains of powder is over 6 drams !!!

That is a proof load, and not something you should be feeding the gun or your shoulder on a regular basis.

How about cutting that load back to 3 drams-3.5 drams(82.5-96.5 grains) and 3 oz. of shot or less( 437.5 grains to the oz: 3 oz. equals 1312.5 grains )? I would shoot no more than 2 ounces of shot, considering the short distances you are shooting clay targets at. I think you will fine the performance of your current jug choke will be tighter with the lighter load. The real advantage of shooting the larger gauges is that you can load " 12 ga. loads" in them, and have no recoil at all. And, because the shot is spread over a much larger breech area, it stays closer together as it leaves the barrel, and you get more uniform patterns over a greater distance.

I do have a personal friend who shoots his 8 ga with 4 drams of powder( 110 grains) and 3 oz. of shot, but he starts showing the signs of flinching after about 8 rounds, and if he is going to miss a target, it will be #9 or #10. I keep telling him to stop beating himself up, but he likes to see the other shooters jump at the roar of his cannon! His gun will take the load, but again, I think both he and you would be better shooters if you gave your shoulders a rest.

 

[BS]

I don't know why you enjoy beating your shoulder to death? 170 grains of powder is over 6 drams !!!

[b]That is a proof load, and not something you should be feeding the gun or your shoulder on a regular basis. [/b]

How about cutting that load back to 3 drams-3.5 drams(82.5-96.5 grains) and 3 oz. of shot or less( 437.5 grains to the oz: 3 oz. equals 1312.5 grains )? I would shoot no more than 2 ounces of shot, considering the short distances you are shooting clay targets at. I think you will fine the performance of your current jug choke will be tighter with the lighter load. The real advantage of shooting the larger gauges is that you can load " 12 ga. loads" in them, and have no recoil at all. And, because the shot is spread over a much larger breech area, it stays closer together as it leaves the barrel, and you get more uniform patterns over a greater distance.

I do have a personal friend who shoots his 8 ga with 4 drams of powder( 110 grains) and 3 oz. of shot, but he starts showing the signs of flinching after about 8 rounds, and if he is going to miss a target, it will be #9 or #10. I keep telling him to stop beating himself up, but he likes to see the other shooters jump at the roar of his cannon! His gun will take the load, but again, I think both he and you would be better shooters if you gave your shoulders a rest.

The proof load was 340FF and two 1000 grain balls.

Actually the 170-170 is a very mild load. So is the 150-220.............I don't shoot trap or skeet, but will give some of the lighter loads a try.............you never know what will really pattern well in a bigbore smoothbore!

Thanks for the information on loads.

 

[Bookie]

Gentlemen, thank you for your thoughts. It appears that "Dutchie" and I need to do some experimenting with our loads. (you can read about his recent construction in the Pre-flintlock section) Will increase the powder and shot AND reduce the thickness of the cushion wads for starters. Thanks again, Cheers, Bookie :hatsoff:

 

[Dave K]

Also in your testing, a good way to check for enough energy in your pattern is to shoot a good tin can at the range you plan to take your turkey.If your shot is going through this tin can, you have enough energy to break bones. You don't need any more power (recoil) than that. JMHO