Want to purchase an Uberti 1851 Navy, but have some questions

[Bunk]

OK, so that begs the newbie question.....WHO IS GOON??? website? contact info?

Goon's Gun Works (Goons Gun Works) is Mike Bracket who's SASS alias is .45 Dragoon.
Mike's brag is "as reliable as a suppository gun" so I sent him a pair of Pietta 1860 Army Colts to do to prove his brag.
A barrel record was kept and now the guns have over a total of one thousand rounds without a cap jam. My only change was a set of slixshot nipples to replace the originals.
I don't shoot them very often but when I do there is no doubt they will work every time.
I have no idea how jammed up he is on turn around time he is a one man operation but Mike turns out guns that work every time all the time.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
James L. "Bunk" Stagner SASS# 85926

 

[Bunk]

Goon's Gun Works (Goons Gun Works) is Mike Bracket who's SASS alias is .45 Dragoon.
Mike's brag is "as reliable as a suppository gun" so I sent him a pair of Pietta 1860 Army Colts to do to prove his brag.
A barrel record was kept and now the guns have over a total of one thousand rounds without a cap jam. My only change was a set of slixshot nipples to replace the originals.
I don't shoot them very often but when I do there is no doubt they will work every time.
I have no idea how jammed up he is on turn around time he is a one man operation but Mike turns out guns that work every time all the time.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
James L. "Bunk" Stagner SASS# 85926

those guns have the "rented mule" work and the coil plunget spring hand modification.
Well worth the extra few bucks IMHO
Bunk

 

[M. De Land]

My Walkers got sloppy in the barrel/frame fit really quick, because of sloppy Arbor fitting. It is important , almost necessary, for the big horse revolvers that use 50gr charges.

The average guy can get away with a .36 Navy using the wedge to absorb the recoil for the probably 100 rounds per year he'll shoot but the big guns are less forgiving of improper arbor fit.

I still wonder how you figure arbor end joint fit has anything at all to do with strengthening it against cylinder gap increase or barrel separation. When the light comes on and the ball hits the forcing cone the barrel and arbor well (which are one piece} is trying to separate from the frame and is trying to drag the wedge and end of the slot in the arbor along with it. Wither or not the end of the arbor is making contact is irrelevant. The joint between the two prevents any strengthening against this separation wither making contact or not. A snug radial fit of the arbor in the well is much more important to wedge slot strength , torsion load and consistent flex movement.
This is also the reason wedge thickness fit (not just angular width fit) to all slots is important which is almost never mentioned.
The end joint of barrel and arbor has no ability what so ever to prevent this separation wither making contact or not. The end of the arbor slot is holding the whole pressure load, which is why one does not want to weaken it by drilling holes for adjustable end pressure screws.
I could never tell from shooting that short arbor end fit is negative to accuracy but I see I need to set up a Ransom Rest to test before and after end fitting to prove this out one way or the other. We have one at our local range and I'll see about machining a set of grip adapters to fit my Pietta 60.
I would also point out that I have an early Uberti 62 Police that has a short arbor as well so Pietta is not alone in this supposed defect.
My 60 Pietta has had a new wedge made and fit, trigger made and fit, forcing cone re-cut, muzzle crowning, new front blade install, barrel lap, lug shortening/pin refit and bolt and notch honing ( corner and edge breaking with stones) .
Oh, I forgot to mention, some years ago I learned to save stainless steel flat coil springs out of broken Luftkin tape measures from which to fabricate single action bolt and trigger flat springs. They are unbreakable but very tough to fabricate and drill. The high chrome content is what makes them so tough and I have never had one break this most probable (susceptible to breakage} spring, ever invented..

 

[M. De Land]

I'm interested in getting into black powder and have always wanted an original colt navy, but i would never shoot a collectors item.
I found a place called Long Hunt that sells Ubertis with custom work done to them before shipping.

COWBOY ACTION FIREARMS - LONG HUNTER SHOOTING SUPPLY

here is what you get for $640

1. Hone, and rework all internal parts
2. Replace springs with high quality U.S. springs (Lee's "Gunslinger Spring Kit")
3. Rebuild and harden single tooth hand.
4. Rebuild and harden bolt cam as necessary
5. Drill frame for Coil type Hand Spring and install.
6. Correct Bolt engagement and position
7. Rework sear and hammer for crisp 2 1/2lb. trigger pull
8. Re-cut forcing cone to 11 degrees
9. Square and smooth barrel face
10. Correct Cylinder gap for fouling
11. Correct timing and advance or delay bolt drop as necessary
12. Install Slix-Shot Stainless Steel Nipples
13. Correct Arbor Length in Frame

you can also get the muzzle angle cut to 11-degrees for an extra $100. i've read quite a few articles about pros/cons/uselessness of having a crown cut into the bore. mostly it seems like hype and it does not produce consistent shots. with each shot, the gas blows out in different ways so no 2 shot are really the same. as to weather it tightens the grouping at all is unknown?

question 1 - Is this gun worth the $640. i know they put about $100 in nipples and springs into it, so the gunsmithing looks to cost around $200, give or take.
question 1 - does anyone feel that getting a 11-degree muzzle crown is worth it or just nonsense?

I have found one wants the round ball to engage the rifling at about half it's diameter into the cone which seems to work out pretty well accuracy wise.. The first thing though is to check for breech square and cone concentricity . Some of these guns look like they were cut by hand with a counter sink. They must be done in a lathe or with a coning tool and bore fit bushings driven from the muzzle with a shaft. to get them concentric.
Next the crown needs squared and cut concentric and then the bore plug gauged. Most will have tight and loose spots that should be lapped for best accuracy , ease of fouling clean up both lead and powder.
Hand lapping with poured lead slugs and abrasive paste is the best method I have used in both rifle and pistol barrel.
I would not suggest fire lapping as I about ruined a 58 Rem Pietta experimenting with this . It cut the forcing cone out of concentric for some reason. I suspect it was because my lap slugs were not seated squarely in the chamber mouth which is often a problem with conicals in percussion revolvers.
It how ever worked very well in several cartridge guns I have used it in both rifle and pistol.

 

[M. De Land]

Long as I'm being controversial let me throw this bit in for chewing on. Some folks get all up set when they see a bolt drag line on the cylinder and start yelling the gun is out of time. Phooey, the gun is only seriously out of time when the hand is trying to turn the cylinder before the bolt nose is clear the back top wall of the stop notch in the cylinder. You see this very often when the top back edge of the notch wall is peened out from the bolt not clearing it before rotation.
It's nice to have the bolt line only in the lead in cut but actually there is a benefit to having it drop before it gets to the cut in models that have them. The benefit is that the bolt spring tension on the bolt nose is dampening the cylinder rotation inertia speed so when the bolt drops into the cut and then notch it does not slam as hard into the back wall of the notch.
A properly dressed bolt nose will make no cut into the cylinder only a rub line that hurts nothing and has some benefit.
Loosely (to narrow) fitting bolt nose widths tend to waller out both the frame window and stop notches over time plus they hinder chamber to bore alignment.

 

[TFoley]

....and we STILL don't know where the gentleman can NOT shoot a handgun lives......it's a very interesting point to note that there is somewhere in the wide-open expanse of the USA that is so packed-in with people that he can't shoot a BP gun.

OP, please tell us!!

 

[Joemolf]

Mike. Can you tell me what brand and size canonical you use. Perhaps give me a link?
So, also in the great. 375 bs .380 diameter ball debate, where do you stand? Seems like casting your own would take.forever. i have not seen a mold that makes more than 2 rounds. Not thrilled about way increased lead gas exposure while melting and casting, even though you are still exposed when shiiting......just way less quantity.

I’m not as experienced as others but I would recommend the ERAS GONE BULLET MOLDS. I have both Johnson and Dow 36 and 44 cal. (I’m somewhat of a hoarder 2 each one each as a backup). Marc who had them manufactured for him by Lee Precision sells them. He has a bunch of other molds to offer and he’s a nice helpful guy. They are reasonably priced and work well! He sell other molds as well. I think he’s on Facebook or was as well as YouTube also as well explaing how to use them using the Manley Mandrel (I only have one each 44 and 36). Check them out you won’t be disappointed with them or paper cartridges if you go that route. www.erasgonebullets.webstarts.com

 

[Joemolf]

Also I don’t cast bullets too often but once you lead is at temperature I was cranking these out like they were going out of style. Nice bight and shiny .38 conicals.

 

[Joemolf]

....and we STILL don't know where the gentleman can NOT shoot a handgun lives......it's a very interesting point to note that there is somewhere in the wide-open expanse of the USA that is so packed-in with people that he can't shoot a BP gun.

OP, please tell us!!

LOL probably New York! The law in NY is something to the affect that if you own a BP revolver you can’t have any of the items to make it fire! No caps no balls no powder. That is why my revolvers are at my house in NH. There I can go out in my back and shoot to my heart’s content. If you want to legally shoot them in NY they need to be registered just like any other hand gun. I don’t know what the rules are for musket pistols I have seen people at the range shooting them.

 

[45D]

....and we STILL don't know where the gentleman can NOT shoot a handgun lives......it's a very interesting point to note that there is somewhere in the wide-open expanse of the USA that is so packed-in with people that he can't shoot a BP gun.

OP, please tell us!!

Nope, not NY!!!
I guess you'd be amazed at all the places you can't shoot in this wide open country! I'd think pretty much any urban area, down town, subdivisions, any county or city that has a dense enough population to impose an ordinance against outdoor shooting ( bp or not, they'll still kill ya just as dead as the unmentionable ones).

Mike

 

[SmokepoleSam]

Musket/singleshot pistols are treated the same as BP revolvers in NY

 

[TFoley]

I get it. He's talking about walking out on his front porch and letting off a few shots at a passing tree. Well, that's not allowed in many places, not just the USA, as I'm certain you all know.

Me, I have to go to my nearest gun club to shoot.

 

[Joemolf]

I get it. He's talking about walking out on his front porch and letting off a few shots at a passing tree. Well, that's not allowed in many places, not just the USA, as I'm certain you all know.

Me, I have to go to my nearest gun club to shoot.

Agree ! Plain and simple.

 

[Joemolf]

Musket/singleshot pistols are treated the same as BP revolvers in NY

I never looked into it but they can be added to your permit. I guess you have to have the musket serialized. Lol I wonder how much that will cost.

 

[Joemolf]

Nope, not NY!!!
I guess you'd be amazed at all the places you can't shoot in this wide open country! I'd think pretty much any urban area, down town, subdivisions, any county or city that has a dense enough population to impose an ordinance against outdoor shooting ( bp or not, they'll still kill ya just as dead as the unmentionable ones).

Mike

Makes good sense to me!

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

"If i pay $100 to rehone the cylinder to .380 (i think it's. 378) then that will solve so many functional issues"

First if you want to shoot a .380" ball they will move forward under recoil and lock the gun up in a .380" cylinder. The cylinder needs to be slightly smaller than the ball. Second, I have never paid more than $35 to have the chambers in a cylinder honed to my specs. If you change the ball size you will also want to rework the forcing cone.

If you spent $1600 for an upgraded Glock you probably won't be satisfied with an unmodified Italian revolver. I would suggest that no matter which brand, new or used, you get send it to Goons to be reworked. It's money well spent.

i meant $1600 total. not $1600 in modifications. $800 in custom parts.

so regarding the .380 bores, i get that the balls could move with recoil. and i guess it makes sense that if you use .375 ball, they will essentially be "squished" down into a tight fit that seals the chamber with a lead ring, so to speak. so for factory Uberti with .375, is .380 perfect or is it 001 or 002 too big? if .380 works just fine then i won't mess with it. since i've never loaded one, how hard is it to press the .380 down into the .375 chamber? is this a situation where you have to load "off-gun", or is it manageable to just drop the balls in and press?

 

[45D]

I still wonder how you figure arbor end joint fit has anything at all to do with strengthening it against cylinder gap increase or barrel separation. When the light comes on and the ball hits the forcing cone the barrel and arbor well (which are one piece} is trying to separate from the frame and is trying to drag the wedge and end of the slot in the arbor along with it. Wither or not the end of the arbor is making contact is irrelevant. The joint between the two prevents any strengthening against this separation wither making contact or not. A snug radial fit of the arbor in the well is much more important to wedge slot strength , torsion load and consistent flex movement.
This is also the reason wedge thickness fit (not just angular width fit) to all slots is important which is almost never mentioned.
The end joint of barrel and arbor has no ability what so ever to prevent this separation wither making contact or not. The end of the arbor slot is holding the whole pressure load, which is why one does not want to weaken it by drilling holes for adjustable end pressure screws.
I could never tell from shooting that short arbor end fit is negative to accuracy but I see I need to set up a Ransom Rest to test before and after end fitting to prove this out one way or the other. We have one at our local range and I'll see about machining a set of grip adapters to fit my Pietta 60.
I would also point out that I have an early Uberti 62 Police that has a short arbor as well so Pietta is not alone in this supposed defect.
My 60 Pietta has had a new wedge made and fit, trigger made and fit, forcing cone re-cut, muzzle crowning, new front blade install, barrel lap, lug shortening/pin refit and bolt and notch honing ( corner and edge breaking with stones) .
Oh, I forgot to mention, some years ago I learned to save stainless steel flat coil springs out of broken Luftkin tape measures from which to fabricate single action bolt and trigger flat springs. They are unbreakable but very tough to fabricate and drill. The high chrome content is what makes them so tough and I have never had one break this most probable (susceptible to breakage} spring, ever invented..

You're right, you still don't get it! Lol

Mike

 

[45D]

Long as I'm being controversial let me throw this bit in for chewing on. Some folks get all up set when they see a bolt drag line on the cylinder and start yelling the gun is out of time. Phooey, the gun is only seriously out of time when the hand is trying to turn the cylinder before the bolt nose is clear the back top wall of the stop notch in the cylinder. You see this very often when the top back edge of the notch wall is peened out from the bolt not clearing it before rotation.
It's nice to have the bolt line only in the lead in cut but actually there is a benefit to having it drop before it gets to the cut in models that have them. The benefit is that the bolt spring tension on the bolt nose is dampening the cylinder rotation inertia speed so when the bolt drops into the cut and then notch it does not slam as hard into the back wall of the notch.
A properly dressed bolt nose will make no cut into the cylinder only a rub line that hurts nothing and has some benefit.
Loosely (to narrow) fitting bolt nose widths tend to waller out both the frame window and stop notches over time plus they hinder chamber to bore alignment.

Ok, first, you're describing either a hand that is too long or an excessive reset cut or a combination of both. You have to know the "how" to figure out the "what it is". When setting up timing in a Colt type action, the first step is to have a correct length hand (thought I was going to say Arbor right?!!! Lol). The "givens" you have is the hammer selected and the trigger selected.
The hand is installed on the hammer of course and it will rotate the cylinder and bring a chamber to battery. So, the hand length is correct when the bolt locking the cylinder and the trigger sear reaching the full cock notch happen simultaneously (one should drag a finger on the cyl when checking this). That is the " length of cycle" in which all cycling operations have to happen. Over rotation of the hammer to get to lockup means a short hand, lockup before full cock means a too long hand.
After achieving the correct hand length, you can then adjust the bolt drop which means "when" the left bolt arm will fall off the cam allowing the bolt head to contact the cyl surface. This should happen a bolt width to 1 1/2 bolt widths before the locking notch (with or without an "approach" (lead as some call it)). Achieving that, you should have 3 distinct "clicks" - half cock, bolt drop, and full cock (including the simultaneous bolt locking the cyl ). That is correct timing.

The described "premature" turning of the cylinder can now be deciphered. If the timing is correct, then the reset cut is the problem. This is the area on the bolt arm where the cam fits with the action at rest. When the cycle is started, the bolt should almost immediately be "picked up" (bolt pickup) by the cam which will unlock the cylinder. If the cut (on the arm) has too much clearance, pickup will be late and the hand will be trying to turn a still locked cyl.
So that's how you determine if it's a "hand thing" or "bolt arm thing".


The bolt should only have about 4 lbs pressure (not a lot) so even though there's obviously contact with the cyl, the drag from the bolt head is pretty minimal. The main " braking" of the cyl is (by design) the hand. As the hand rises during the cycle (its contact with the ratchet is vertical) the hand spring tension is increased by the increasing angle of the hand slot (chimney). This increase in tension ******* the rotation of the cylinder by the hand's contact of the up coming ratchet tooth and conditions the cyl for lockup. One of the first signs of a weakened or cracked hand spring is cylinder throw-by (over rotation).

Lastly, the bolt window in the frame is too large for my tolerances (allowing excess horizontal bolt movement) which is exactly why I install a bolt block in every S.A. I tune. It's one of the best passive installs one can do (the other being an action stop). It supports the bolt horizontally during lockup while allowing it to move freely to lock / unlock the cylinder. It also increases the mechanical accuracy of the action, protects the bolt and the cylinder locking notches from side to side wear. It allows you to "treat um like a Mule!"!!



Mike

 

[Zulch]

Ok, first, you're describing either a hand that is too long or an excessive reset cut or a combination of both. You have to know the "how" to figure out the "what it is". When setting up timing in a Colt type action, the first step is to have a correct length hand (thought I was going to say Arbor right?!!! Lol). The "givens" you have is the hammer selected and the trigger selected.
The hand is installed on the hammer of course and it will rotate the cylinder and bring a chamber to battery. So, the hand length is correct when the bolt locking the cylinder and the trigger sear reaching the full cock notch happen simultaneously (one should drag a finger on the cyl when checking this). That is the " length of cycle" in which all cycling operations have to happen. Over rotation of the hammer to get to lockup means a short hand, lockup before full cock means a too long hand.
After achieving the correct hand length, you can then adjust the bolt drop which means "when" the left bolt arm will fall off the cam allowing the bolt head to contact the cyl surface. This should happen a bolt width to 1 1/2 bolt widths before the locking notch (with or without an "approach" (lead as some call it)). Achieving that, you should have 3 distinct "clicks" - half cock, bolt drop, and full cock (including the simultaneous bolt locking the cyl ). That is correct timing.

The described "premature" turning of the cylinder can now be deciphered. If the timing is correct, then the reset cut is the problem. This is the area on the bolt arm where the cam fits with the action at rest. When the cycle is started, the bolt should almost immediately be "picked up" (bolt pickup) by the cam which will unlock the cylinder. If the cut (on the arm) has too much clearance, pickup will be late and the hand will be trying to turn a still locked cyl.
So that's how you determine if it's a "hand thing" or "bolt arm thing".


The bolt should only have about 4 lbs pressure (not a lot) so even though there's obviously contact with the cyl, the drag from the bolt head is pretty minimal. The main " braking" of the cyl is (by design) the hand. As the hand rises during the cycle (its contact with the ratchet is vertical) the hand spring tension is increased by the increasing angle of the hand slot (chimney). This increase in tension ******* the rotation of the cylinder by the hand's contact of the up coming ratchet tooth and conditions the cyl for lockup. One of the first signs of a weakened or cracked hand spring is cylinder throw-by (over rotation).

Lastly, the bolt window in the frame is too large for my tolerances (allowing excess horizontal bolt movement) which is exactly why I install a bolt block in every S.A. I tune. It's one of the best passive installs one can do (the other being an action stop). It supports the bolt horizontally during lockup while allowing it to move freely to lock / unlock the cylinder. It also increases the mechanical accuracy of the action, protects the bolt and the cylinder locking notches from side to side wear. It allows you to "treat um like a Mule!"!!



Mike

Mike, thank you for the explanation. Curious here, is the bolt block sort of like a countersunk/recessed sleeve which surrounds the frame cutout (where the bolt goes up and down) to help minimize side to side slop of the bolt? Man that was a mouthful. Sorry. Sheesh!

 

[45D]

Mike, thank you for the explanation. Curious here, is the bolt block sort of like a countersunk/recessed sleeve which surrounds the frame cutout (where the bolt goes up and down) to help minimize side to side slop of the bolt? Man that was a mouthful. Sorry. Sheesh!

Hey buddy!! The bolt block is just a fitted chunk of steel that lays along side of the bolt ( not quite like snuggling with the wifey but close .. lol). Since it has the ability to have "accidental contact" along the whole side of the bolt, it does an excellent job of limiting the horizontal movement of the bolt. It takes up the space that the force of the rotating cyl wants to push the bolt into. Therefore it stops any unwanted movement horizontally. It takes the size of the bolt window out of the equation so to speak. The rear of the block is angled so that it extends under the unused part of the bolt screw pin while the forward end is trapped under the trigger side of the re-purposed combination spring.
This can be clearly seen in this pic.

The bolt side of the re-purposed combo spring is shaped to be a keeper for the stationary end of the torsion springs.

Mike