Wear out a barrel?

[Babills]

I am looking at an older Flintlock with a 45 cal Douglas barrel. Beautiful rifle, but is it possible to wear out a barrel shooting patched round ball. I know cartridge guns can burn out a barrel but have never heard of an old muzzleloader being burned out. Not enough pressure i believe but not sure.

 

[M. De Land]

The wear on a muzzle loader is most often in the crown from the loading rod sawing away on the land corners at the end of the bore. You can never wear the rifling out with a clean cloth patched ball. The only thing that does occur from a lot of shooting is the bore can become glazed and cause some accuracy loss but this is easily remedied with a bit of hand lapping or chemical bore agitation. Yeah, they really did use urine or vinegar to rough up a bore that had shot smooth. Usually it is poor cleaning and dirty loading rod use that causes the need for a fresh out in the old days. Modern steel alloy is much tougher than the soft iron/steel barrels on the original guns.
When ever possible use a muzzle protector to keep your loading rod off the land ends, properly clean after each shooting session and you will never wear out a barrel.

 

[Grenadier1758]

More than likely the wear that is observed as the lands being worn down to the grooves is the result of "seasoning" or black powder fouling and oils making a crusty mess to fill the grooves. The Douglas barrels even though they were made from leaded steel for ease of machining are not likely toe wear out. Test the rifle by running a tight fitting oiled patch down the bore. If the patch can grab the rifling and turn the rod as it travels the length of the barrel, its likely to be okay. Also you should take a look at the patch to see if there is rust or feeling the bore for rough spots or bulges.

 

[rich pierce]

A renowned target shooter found his Douglass barrel lost outstanding match winning accuracy after 25,000 rounds or so. He was a big time powder burner.

 

[Hawken1980]

Barrel wear in modern guns is primarily caused by flame cutting around the throat area, but pressures on those propellants reach 50-60 thousand psi. Black powder 18-22 thousand psi at max
Not to mention the results of that force and heat going through a bottle neck.

Rod wear is what will kill a muzzleloader not patched round balls

 

[M. De Land]

A renowned target shooter found his Douglass barrel lost outstanding match winning accuracy after 25,000 rounds or so. He was a big time powder burner.

I would venture a guess that a good lead slug hand lapping would remove the glaze and bring those bores back to pristine accuracy again. I've hand lapped quite a few barrels over the last 40 years or so and have been amazed at how well it makes a barrel perk up and shoot again in most instances , even really rough one's.

 

[rich pierce]

He had the folks at Dixon’s Gunmakers Fair fresh the rifling a bit. A couple thousandths did it.

 

[Eric Krewson]

I am the third owner of a rifle that is supposed to have had 50K shots through it, my buddy who gave it to me said he shot a pound of powder a week through at 30gr per shot, he did this for years and years.

The barrel is a Large, it started out as a .44 and is now closer to a .45, the rifling is still deep and clear and will stack balls on top of each other at 50 yards.

Here is a bore shot of the rifling;

What you have to look for the most in a barrel is the condition of the bore, many, many barrels have not been cleaned properly and are rusted and pitted. You are 100 times more likely to find a barrel in poor condition from rust and pitting than you are to find one that has been shot out.

This is an extreme example of a gun I tried unsuccessfully to clean up for a guy who didn't have the proper cleaning part in his M/L knowledge. He shot pydrodex by the way.

 

[hanshi]

I'm not even sure it's possible to wear out a modern muzzleloading barrel in an average lifetime. Keep 'em clean and protected from rust and they should outlast their owner.

 

[user 49399]

I hope I can shoot mine enough to wear it out.

 

[M. De Land]

I am the third owner of a rifle that is supposed to have had 50K shots through it, my buddy who gave it to me said he shot a pound of powder a week through at 30gr per shot, he did this for years and years.

The barrel is a Large, it started out as a .44 and is now closer to a .45, the rifling is still deep and clear and will stack balls on top of each other at 50 yards.

Here is a bore shot of the rifling;

View attachment 61792

What you have to look for the most in a barrel is the condition of the bore, many, many barrels have not been cleaned properly and are rusted and pitted. You are 100 times more likely to find a barrel in poor condition from rust and pitting than you are to find one that has been shot out.

This is an extreme example of a gun I tried unsuccessfully to clean up for a guy who didn't have the proper cleaning part in his M/L knowledge. He shot pydrodex by the way.

View attachment 61793

It must be remembered that all a bore need do is spin the projectile . If it can accomplish this in a smooth even manor and not rip the patch or deform the ball then it should be accurate. I have lapped really rough pitted bores to where a fresh lap would move smoothly through with no tight or loose spots and that bore would inevitably shoot accurately again.
I think the issue with bores loosing accuracy when shooting smooth is that the glaze is not uniform and so the ball is encountering different resistance areas as it moves up bore. I believe this glaze is actually carbon fouling and builds up to different levels in varring sections of the bore. The lead lap with various grades of grit removes the carbon fouling/glaze and accuracy is restored, I also believe the differences in ball resistance as it moves up bore screws with barrel harmonics and is part of the reason for accuracy loss.
Lapping does not remove pits as we're only talking a couple of ten thousands of steel removal but what it actually does is level the bore and smooth the projectiles trip up the barrel. If the patch integrity is maintained over a pitted area then accuracy does not seem to be effected.
I believe many barrels are tossed or re-bored because of pitting that could actually be restored to as good of accuracy as when new if properly lapped.
This was a huge discovery to me as I used to think that a rough or pitted bore could not possibly be accurate. The pitting does make them foul faster though from what I can detect but if managed, accuracy does not seem to suffer much if at all.
The one exception is pitting in the crown which always seems to effect accuracy negatively.

 

[ord sgt]

I once asked Roger Fisher about how many barrels did he wear out. Mr. Fisher could be found at the rifle range from opening until closing every day. I thought surely that he must be on his second or third barrel. He said this was the original barrel. The only thing that changed was the thickness of the patches he used. They needed to be thicker so he could maintain good accuracy. Sadly, Mr. Fisher has passed away.

 

[M. De Land]

I once asked Roger Fisher about how many barrels did he wear out. Mr. Fisher could be found at the rifle range from opening until closing every day. I thought surely that he must be on his second or third barrel. He said this was the original barrel. The only thing that changed was the thickness of the patches he used. They needed to be thicker so he could maintain good accuracy. Sadly, Mr. Fisher has passed away.

A barrel can look perfectly clean and smooth and often times when a fresh lead lap is cast in that smooth bore you will feel the tight and loose spots as the lap is traversed the first few times. Some times it will stick in what looks like a perfect bore. This is a diameter change usually and is death to top accuracy. Lead slug hand lapping is accomplished mostly by feel and a fresh lap or freshly grit charged lap will pick up even one ten thousands of diameter change. A level bore seems to be just as accurate as the ones I have lapped some choke into but I do prefer some choke as I think the pull from a bit more resistance as the ball leaves the muzzle dampens barrel harmonics.

 

[olskool]

i just got a barrel back from Bobby Hoyt. it had a rust spot about half way down. i am the 3rd owner of the gun. Bobby cleaned up the bore and ran his cutter down it. it is super smooth now and very accurate. i never clean a bore with water either for the reason of rust. i use a mix of 50/50 alcohol and Murphy's oil soap, it makes a bore shine like a monkeys butt,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Bob McBride]

I don’t think the average shooter can shoot out a barrel but they are shot out. I’ve shot out several chrome lined 5.56 and 9mm barrels in my 3gun days. 50k rounds per barrel per year isn’t a crazy amount in that sport so it doesn’t take too awfully long. Muzzleloader barrels won’t last as long but will still take many thousands of rounds. I would think most people shoot far less than 100 rounds per year though a particular barrel.

 

[M. De Land]

I don’t think the average shooter can shoot out a barrel but they are shot out. I’ve shot out several chrome lined 5.56 and 9mm barrels in my 3gun days. 50k rounds per barrel per year isn’t a crazy amount in that sport so it doesn’t take too awfully long. Muzzleloader barrels won’t last as long but will still take many thousands of rounds. I would think most people shoot far less than 100 rounds per year though a particular barrel.

Bob almost the opposite is true. Barrels shoot out in modern barrels from erosion not corrosion. High pressure and high temperature first causes cracks in the throat area and then begins to lift the cracked plates to cause bore constriction which is the real cause of inaccuracy. The rifling profile up bore past the eroded area wears almost not at all except to smooth up. You can see this very easily in guns that shoot paper patch bullets with a bore scope.
Harry Popes best match rifle, shooting lead bullets and simi-smokless powder had over 125,000 rounds through it and he stated it was still to accurate to re-barrel. It took me a long time and lots of work and experimentation in barrel lapping to realize what I thought I knew about accuracy loss was actually incorrect. A bore scope and set of incremental plug gauges really sped up the learning curve.

 

[Bob McBride]

Bob almost the opposite is true. Barrels shoot out in modern barrels from erosion not corrosion. High pressure and high temperature first causes cracks in the throat area and then begins to lift the cracked plates to cause bore constriction which is the real cause of inaccuracy. The rifling profile up bore past the eroded area wears almost not at all except to smooth up. You can see this very easily in guns that shoot paper patch bullets with a bore scope.
Harry Popes best match rifle, shooting lead bullets and simi-smokless powder had over 125,000 rounds through it and he stated it was still to accurate to re-barrel. It took me a long time and lots of work and experimentation in barrel lapping to realize what I thought I knew about accuracy loss was actually incorrect. A bore scope and set of incremental plug gauges really sped up the learning curve.

Almost the opposite of what is true?

 

[Bob McBride]

Oh I see what you’re saying. That BP barrels will last longer than moderns due to the way they wear? Could be I suppose. I haven’t put more than a few k through any one BP gun. I have however seen enough shot out Daniel Defense barrels that I can see the difference between a new one and one with 100-150k through them with a scope or the naked eye. From either end. Those steel jacketed bullets wear that rifling, even on chrome lined barrels, but yes they usually go first in the throat.

 

[M. De Land]

Muzzle loading barrels won't last as long.

 

[M. De Land]

If you take a shot out modern barrel and cut it back to clear the eroded area, re-chamber it to the same spec it will be just as accurate as it always was with a bit less velocity for the same volume of powder because the expansion ration has been reduced by a shorter barrel. Even jacket bullets do not significantly change the rifling profile as the land corner will still be sharp in profile up bore. The corners will be smoother but still perfectly able to grip the bullet and impart the same rotation of spin.
The smoothed land corners are actually a better gas seal than is sharp square corners in my opinion as this is precisely what lead slug lapped barrels produce.