Wear out a barrel?

[Josephg]

Long time ago I borrowed a Thompson Center rifle from a friends dad who was about a hundred and twenty years old. He had been shooting it a lot for many years. I wanted it for a elk hunt on the Manastash. The bore was egg shaped at the muzzle. The old man had been using a brown plastic/fiberglass ramrod all those years. At a hundred yards it would put most shots in a foot circle. Took it home, cut 3/8 off the end of the barrel and re-crowned. That rifle would keep all shots in a 4 inch circle from then on. Hard to wear out a rifled tube. When I gave the old man his rifle back and told him I cut the barrel off and crowned it, he asked me what he owed me. That was about 30 years ago. He's probly still shooting it. Good old man that old man!

 

[M. De Land]

Long time ago I borrowed a Thompson Center rifle from a friends dad who was about a hundred and twenty years old. He had been shooting it a lot for many years. I wanted it for a elk hunt on the Manastash. The bore was egg shaped at the muzzle. The old man had been using a brown plastic/fiberglass ramrod all those years. At a hundred yards it would put most shots in a foot circle. Took it home, cut 3/8 off the end of the barrel and re-crowned. That rifle would keep all shots in a 4 inch circle from then on. Hard to wear out a rifled tube. When I gave the old man his rifle back and told him I cut the barrel off and crowned it, he asked me what he owed me. That was about 30 years ago. He's probly still shooting it. Good old man that old man!

Another inch probably would tighten it up half again course you would need a new dovetail for the front blade. Those dang fiber glass rods( we call them noodle rods) will flex and saw on the land corners all up and down the length of the barrel and are the worst invention know to man for muzzle loading use.

 

[Eric Krewson]

The roached out barrel in my picture was a TC with shallow rifling. By the time I got the crud out of it there was almost no visible rifling and the pits were deep. It got a trip to Mr. Hoyt to be turned from a .50 into a .54.

It wasn't worth my time to buy a TC plug wrench and try to refesh this barrel for a guy who I had to brow beat to get him to clean his rifle properly.

I invited him to hunt the best property I ever had permission to hunt, we had been best friends for 30 years. I didn't know his hunting practices included taking flag shots and taking shots at anything through thick brush or at any distance. He wounded and lost 8 deer in 3 years including 3 bucks in the 160+ class.

When I told him he had to clean up his act or find another place to hunt he said "I don't ever want to see you again" and stomped off. I honored his request.

 

[TexiKan]

When I first joined this forum, I asked a similar question because I used to hear other shooters say "my barrel is shot out" as an excuse for their poor scores. Granted, I heard this more often in the 1970's and early '80's. Not anymore. I was advised on this forum that the iron is no longer the same and thus the likelihood of a modern black powder barrel being "shot out" like those of old is not the same. Back then, I built a Sharon Hawken rifle and to this day it remains my primary rifle. Many, many charges down it.

 

[muzzlecap]

Some of the shot out barrel comments one used to hear a lot, particularly back in the 70's and 80's when the craze was hot, were by owners who didn't really understand shooting a muzzleloader. A lot of people bought them just because it was the latest thing to try, and shot them a few times and threw them in the back of the safe. They didn't bother with experimenting with different balls/bullets, powders, patches etc. And when accuracy was all over the place the comment was often "the gun is shot out" or "the bore is no good". I had given my dad a new Investarms Hawken in 1980. Around 2010 he made the comment that he was thinking of drilling a couple of holes in the stock and mounting it on the cabin wall. I asked why he would do that. His reply, " the barrel is shot out". It had seen about 20 balls shot through it since I had given it to him . I just shook my head and took possession of the gun.

 

[Evelyn BH]

Sorry if this is a naive question, but... what's involved to lead lap a barrel?

 

[M. De Land]

I make one piece a lap rods of steel with a ball bearing handle then turn a jag shape integral in the rod with ribs on a taper to hold the lap slug securely. To this lap rod is fit a bore center made of brass to keep the rod centered and off the bore while lapping, The jag end of the rod has a string groove turned into it just above the ribs. The string is wound in the groove to make a dam of snug bore fit to block the melted lead as it molds around the jag to form the lap slug. I always cast the lap in the breech end and put the bore guard in the muzzle. The reason is a fresh lap cuts fastest when fresh so this tends to keep the muzzle tight . The lead for the lap needs to be as pure lead as possible as pure lead shrinks more than alloy lead does. This is important in keeping the lap from freezing in the bore when cooled.
The barrel is warmed with a torch to where it is uncomfortable to touch before the lap is cast to get as good of a cast as possible but if it is too hot it will expand enough to freeze up the lap as it cools and shrinks back to normal size. The cast is usually made about four inches long and after it is cooled about an inch is pushed out the end of the bore for charging with lap compound. I usually start with about 220 grit. You only need to charge the first inch of the lap and the compound will spread and cover the lap over the first couple of traverses. If you charge the whole lap it will often stick in the bore and will need to be melted out and you start over. The lap does not need to be a perfect mold fit to work but the better cast that is made the better it works.
I typically re-charge the lap every 50 round trips (up and back) per trip then when the slug loosens up I cast a new one about every 250 trips which is five lap compound refreshes.
When you come to a tight spot you give the rod a little shoe shine back and forth in that area and then blend in to either side of it until the bore feels the same all the way up and back from one end to the other. I usually go from 220 grit to 320 grit and finish up with 400 grit. You can go higher but it doesn't do much good past 400 grit as far as I can tell. It must be remembered that the grit you start with is continually breaking down and becoming smoother as it wears and the grains are becoming fractured and rounded off on the edges as it cuts barrel steel. A 400 grit lapped barrel will shine like a new penny when the lap job is completed.
Some barrels I have lapped took as much as 2500 trips and the three grit sizes mentioned to get the bore finished as well as possible.
A good lap job may not cure an accuracy problem but it will never hurt a barrel if executed properly. Some barrels will not shoot for sour apples no matter what for reasons other than bore uniformity and smoothness but most will respond favorably even really rough and /or pitted ones.
Pitted bores really are not the boogy man most people think they are . This was a revelation to me but when one thinks about it why should they be any different than a roughly rifled bore that very often shoot excellently.
I remember reading and article many years ago by a barrel maker Ron Snover. He said he had a match rifle in his shop for some minor repair that had won many national Schuetzen matches. When he cleaned the bore and looked down it he said the rifling was so roughly cut to his mind that he would have never let it out of his shop had he made it, in such condition ,but the fact remained it was superbly accurate any way and had numerous national match wins to prove it. Go figure!

 

[Evelyn BH]

Thank you, M. DeLand. I'm not quite clear about the casting process. You warm the barrel, then pour molten lead down it, then push the jag into the slug of lead while still molten?

 

[M. De Land]

No, the rod with the string dam is pushed up bore with the barrel vertical in a padded vice. The barrel should extend a good 8-10inches above the padded vice jaws so it can be heated in the vice. You can use a propane torch or heat gun for this. A block is put on a stool at the lower end of the lap rod against the handle to keep it in place when the lap is being poured down bore, unto the jag end of the rod. The jag is postitioned about four inches down bore. The lead pot is heated up to about 750-800 degree F. and the barrel is heated while in the vice just before the casting is made. Fill the barrel with a continuous stream of melted lead to just short of the end of the bore so you don't have to trim the lap slug when it cools.
You will also need to make a lap stop to clamp on the far end of the barrel so you don't push the slug out and loose index. If you loose index and can't get the slug back into the barrel precisely in the same position it was cast in then a new slug needs to be made as no two lands and groove are exactly the same around the bore, especially in single point cut rifling but even in the rest of the rifling methods.
I make a lap stop with a piece of angle iron with one end closed off with a flat plate. I leather pad it on the end and in two places on the inside angle then clap it to the barrel with spring clamps allowing about and inch of the lap to extend out before it hits the stop end.
The lap is extended out about an inch into the stop fixture and this is where it is re-charged with fresh lapping compound.

 

[Babills]

Thanks for all the info I bought the rifle tonight. Its beautiful and barrel looks great. Took one shot before dark and cleaned her up. Barrel is very smooth. Well balanced and super thin. Gonna have to wait until this cold snap passes and take it to the range. Gonna post pics in new thread.

 

[Evelyn BH]

No, the rod with the string dam is pushed up bore with the barrel vertical in a padded vice. The barrel should extend a good 8-10inches above the padded vice jaws so it can be heated in the vice. You can use a propane torch or heat gun for this. A block is put on a stool at the lower end of the lap rod against the handle to keep it in place when the lap is being poured down bore, unto the jag end of the rod. The jag is postitioned about four inches down bore. The lead pot is heated up to about 750-800 degree F. and the barrel is heated while in the vice just before the casting is made. Fill the barrel with a continuous stream of melted lead to just short of the end of the bore so you don't have to trim the lap slug when it cools.
You will also need to make a lap stop to clamp on the far end of the barrel so you don't push the slug out and loose index. If you loose index and can't get the slug back into the barrel precisely in the same position it was cast in then a new slug needs to be made as no two lands and groove are exactly the same around the bore, especially in single point cut rifling but even in the rest of the rifling methods.
I make a lap stop with a piece of angle iron with one end closed off with a flat plate. I leather pad it on the end and in two places on the inside angle then clap it to the barrel with spring clamps allowing about and inch of the lap to extend out before it hits the stop end.
The lap is extended out about an inch into the stop fixture and this is where it is re-charged with fresh lapping compound.

Thank you, that's very clear now. I doubt that I will ever need to do this but it's great to know how. I'm always learning stuff on this forum!

 

[LME]

I am looking at an older Flintlock with a 45 cal Douglas barrel. Beautiful rifle, but is it possible to wear out a barrel shooting patched round ball. I know cartridge guns can burn out a barrel but have never heard of an old muzzleloader being burned out. Not enough pressure i believe but not sure.

I have had people tell me they have worn out their barrel when the real culprit was either not cleaning or poor cleaning? These were cartridge rifles no BPs . I have had the chance to purchase some beautiful and costly rifles for a song because the owners thought their barrel was shot out. I had a Safari grade 308 browning that after I cleaned it would shoot one ragged hole at a 100 yards. I could have taken avantage of the fellows ignorance if I had wanted to.He was disgusted with the rifle and was getting rid of it?

 

[Rifleman1776]

We (wife and I) have two target rifles with Douglas barrels. Have shot these countless thousands of times since 1976. They are still dead accurate and reliable. It might be possible to wear out a barrel made of modern steel but unlikely in a couple lifetimes.