Welders

[jdkerstetter]

Perry (or Agent "P" if you'd rather) just seemed appropriate. :wink:

To stear this back to the topic at hand....which is no farther removed from the original topic than this....what would set this gun building forum apart from other "modern" gun building forums if all of the information was mill this, lathe turn that, glass bed the other thing?

I truely was under the impression that this forum was dedicated to the traditional, i.e. old, methods of gun building.....the methods employed in the time frame this site is supposed to encompass. Am I wrong?

I mean, I know where to go to read the other stuff, so why do we need it here?

Now, I can see where modern methods can come in handy, especially in effecting repairs or fixing misstakes, etc....I'm no purist and you will likely find me hiding some modern adhesives under the stuff on my bench....I just feel they shouldn't be the first answer when somebody comes here asking "how'd they do that back then?"

I'm pretty resonable and open to debate, but sometimes it does become bit much and really stretching the argument to say a guy might as well not even try to stock a gun in an authentic manner because he opted to use a 12L14 barrel and a lock made from cast parts.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Copperclad]

Hi JD
Thanks for taking some time to talk about this subject. I will freely admit I was confused.

I would read a thread , where people were talking about using a router to inset a barrel , and no one steps in saying " wait a minute" , same with having a miss drilled hole in a lockplate , welded up. No problem :idunno:

But mention other things that seem to be about the same , and you feel like you are being jumped.

When I would ask why , I would get the " it's not traditional " with no other clear explanation.

Reading your post above , helped get the idea to finally gel for me.

This forum is not so much about traditional guns ( as I was thinking ) but more about traditional methods , and this helps me understand peoples concerns in some of the postings I had read.

thanks again , and best regards

 

[jdkerstetter]

I don't know if there is an answer that will please everybody. I don't have apprentices to do a lot of the grunt work. I have a full time job and three kids....all in sports, scouts and other activities. I use an electrice drill instead of a bow drill, I use a bandsaw instead of frame saw....and mine is powered by electricity because the borough wouldn't let me put a water wheel in the creek across the road. Heck, I even pay a guy to put my barrel in my blank and drill the ramrod hole because the time it saves me is worth more than he charges. I don't want to know how he powers his equipment. :wink:

Could I do without these conveniences? Sure. Do they make me less of a gun maker? I don't think so. So, for roughing out the blank and drilling a few holes my power tools are my apprentices and my electric lights allow me to work during the hours that most of the old timers would be doing other things. I still feel as though I am working in the old ways and try to keep things as traditional as I can from there forward. Works for me.

:hatsoff: Enjoy, J.D.

 

[M. De Land]

Yes, I do think we all loose when discussion of ideas contrary to our own pets are treated with a certain amount of scorn. No one is saying quality guns can't be made using only hand tools anyway just that it doesn't make them of any less quality or more traditional if machinery is used.
One would think from reading some of these posts that lathes, mills and drill presses did not exist and weren't around and used to help make some of the originals and the commercial parts purchased for them by some builders, when not hand made in house. Files were the primary tool used for many parts in originals just as they are today but certainly not all.
They were all in existence and used in one form or another long before flint arms came along.
A boring and reaming machine used in the production of hammer forged iron barrels is a type of lathe for instance,even though hand cranked. Is that not a traditional machine used in all 18th century barrel manufacture? Same deal with a saw tooth, hand pulled rifling machine cutting one groove at a time. Only difference is wither pulled by hand or an electric motor. MD

 

[jdkerstetter]

Yep, I buy my locks and barrels too. Would I like to use ones hand forged from iron? Sure, but it's just a little cost prohibitive.....and remember, I don't have apprentices. Besides I'd rather build guns than make barrels.

The problem I have in these kind of discussions is the way people justify their use of modern things. Some may have a problem with my last post. :idunno: I use a bandsaw where a hand saw was used sometimes. I use an electric drill where a hand drill was used. But the use of a grinder where hand tools were used is a stretch to me....as is justifying using a lathe to turn out parts because a rifling bench was simular.

Good debate though. Let's keep going. Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Copperclad]

Hi
Yes , A very good debate :grin:

My logic on the lathe , is that metal lathes have been being used in manufacturing since the 15th century . So I'm thinking that the lock suppliers , back in the day , were using them to turn out screws and tumblers for the locks they were supplying to the builders.

These are the same parts I am turning for use in the locks I build . So I'm stepping out of the role of gun builder , and into the role of lock producer. And of coarse the water wheel driving my lathe is located at Niagra Falls :wink:

Even if that doesn't fly , the locks people are buying today , to build with , all do have lathe turned parts in them. And so it still makes sense to me , that since I am producing the lock , turning the parts for it , really is not that out of line. :idunno:

Best regards

 

[Zonie]

To all:

This area of the Forum is not titled "The Traditional Method Gun Builder's Bench".

Discussions about using modern equipment, tooling and methods is not prohibited here.

While using the traditional methods of building and finishing muzzleloading guns is encouraged I dare say that there are very few guns made each year that are made using only these methods and these few guns are made by the few masters who are still alive.

This area of the Forum was established to be an aid for those who want to build their own muzzleloading firearms.
It is meant to provide all of the information available about all the methods that can be used.
It is meant for the first time gun builder and the people who have been making muzzleloaders for years but it is not exclusive to any group.

Those who are serious about building a muzzleloader often wish to use the old traditional methods.
This is great and should be reinforced at all times.
Anyone who is knowledgeable about these methods is encouraged to pass along their knowledge to the others on the Forum.

This will not only help them build more accurate reproductions but will help them appreciate the skills of our forefathers in gunsmithing.
It will also help them to recognize the features on muzzleloaders that are often overlooked by the less knowledgeable general public.

Getting down off my soap box, I hope we can get back to discussing the merits (and demerits) of using modern and primitive welding equipment.

 

[hawkeye2]

Thanks Zonie, we needed that! :applause:

 

[Copperclad]

Thanks Zonie
Good work , that clears it up! :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[FL-Flinter]

But....some of us thought this was a forum for the exchange of ideas on traditional gunbuilding. There are other sites dedicated to the field of modern gunsmithing. It could get confusing for those seeking to learn the "old ways".

Not picking at you JD - just for discussion...

So a person purchases a stock blank cut electric mill machines from trees that were harvested with chainsaws and other internal combustion engine machinery. Then said blank gets pre-carved and inlet,RR hole drilled by a subcontractor all using electric powered machinery. Said blank then gets paired up with modern investment cast parts and a modern barrel with the breechplug, lugs, DT's, ect. already installed. Said person then makes liberal use of modern sand paper and steel wool before applying a modern bottled finish. And, when a question arises said person runs to the magic modern electronic box for the answer. Now do tell, exactly what is said person learning about "traditional" gun building or traditional anything else for that matter?
Mark

 

[Robby]

Sometimes it is as much about the process as it is the finished product. Nothing snobbish or chauvinistic meant. I enjoy hearing how people solve the problems they encounter along the way, even if that includes modern methods and machines.
Doesn't mean I will use them. I like solving problems, especially those of my own making. :grin:
Robby

 

[jdkerstetter]

Yea, we've heard that arguement before. I guess it comes down to the individual and their interpretation of traditional.....you can go as far or not as you desire to go.

As I indicated before, I'm not a barrel or a lock maker, foundry operator or lumberjack.....I stock guns. That's where I'm focused. Could I get hand forged barrels and locks without spending thousands of dollars, would I like to use them? Sure.

To me, I fall back on the fact that a majority of builders of Pennsylvania guns bought their barrels from any number of barrel mills that existed at the time, bought their locks from importers or locksmiths, and bought or bartered for their lumber. Brass hardware was readily available. Many of their tools were purchased.

For many, appretices did a majority of the grunt work. So, to me, if one starts with a barrel, lock, blank (inlet for barrel and ramrod or not) and a rough casting of a trigger guard and buttplate and continues from there to create a period longrifle with hand tools, following the excepted means of doing so....that's pretty traditional....to me.

It's documented that most period gun stockers relied on other trades also. So, to your point I would argue that it wouldn't be at all traditional, in most cases, to make your own barrel and lock, cut and mill your own trees and cast your own mounts.

This is an arguement that really can't be won as it comes down to opinion. It's a hobby for most so it comes down to personal satisfaction in the process and the results and I am focused on both. To those in it as a business, it's about the satisfaction of the customer. If they get good enough they can turn down customers who desire what they don't want to build or those who demand it be done in a certain way.

Hopefully, I soon will be posting the build I've been working on for a while. In spirit of full disclosure I will tell what parts were purchased and from who, the rest are hand made. Whether I'm judged on the fact that I bought sheet brass, screws and pin stock to make the parts or not, matters not to me as I know I did my best. :wink:

In the spirit of the site I would like to comment again on the subject of this thread. A gas rig, whether oxy/acet or propane/air, would get the most use in the gunshop focused on longrifles.

Unless I had enough other welding to do so that the electric machines would pay for themselves, I would forego them and spend that money on gun parts or more hand tools. Or put that money toward the dedicated shop I want so bad, so that I can get out of my basement dungeon. Just me.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Yea, we've heard that arguement before. I guess it comes down to the individual and their interpretation of traditional.....you can go as far or not as you desire to go.

As I indicated before, I'm not a barrel or a lock maker, foundry operator or lumberjack.....I stock guns. That's where I'm focused. Could I get hand forged barrels and locks without spending thousands of dollars, would I like to use them? Sure.

To me, I fall back on the fact that a majority of builders of Pennsylvania guns bought their barrels from any number of barrel mills that existed at the time, bought their locks from importers or locksmiths, and bought or bartered for their lumber. Brass hardware was readily available. Many of their tools were purchased.

For many, appretices did a majority of the grunt work. So, to me, if one starts with a barrel, lock, blank (inlet for barrel and ramrod or not) and a rough casting of a trigger guard and buttplate and continues from there to create a period longrifle with hand tools, following the excepted means of doing so....that's pretty traditional....to me.

It's documented that most period gun stockers relied on other trades also. So, to your point I would argue that it wouldn't be at all traditional, in most cases, to make your own barrel and lock, cut and mill your own trees and cast your own mounts.

This is an arguement that really can't be won as it comes down to opinion. It's a hobby for most so it comes down to personal satisfaction in the process and the results and I am focused on both. To those in it as a business, it's about the satisfaction of the customer. If they get good enough they can turn down customers who desire what they don't want to build or those who demand it be done in a certain way.

Hopefully, I soon will be posting the build I've been working on for a while. In spirit of full disclosure I will tell what parts were purchased and from who, the rest are hand made. Whether I'm judged on the fact that I bought sheet brass, screws and pin stock to make the parts or not, matters not to me as I know I did my best. :wink:

In the spirit of the site I would like to comment again on the subject of this thread. A gas rig, whether oxy/acet or propane/air, would get the most use in the gunshop focused on longrifles.

Unless I had enough other welding to do so that the electric machines would pay for themselves, I would forego them and spend that money on gun parts or more hand tools. Or put that money toward the dedicated shop I want so bad, so that I can get out of my basement dungeon. Just me.

Enjoy, J.D.

Well said, J.D. I've only built a small handful of guns myself and they were all built using handmade as well as boughten parts, pre-carved as well as rough stock blanks and fitted and assembled with primitive hand tools as well as power tools. I use what I have available. I'd rather make all the parts by scratch and could probably do it (though working by myself the barrel would be a bear). I'm not that great at woodworking and I'm very slow when it comes to that. My problem with using parts that I make is the time it takes and I get in too big a hurry to shoot the durn thing. I'm at the point now where 1 or 2 more guns will be enough and I can take my time and concentrate on making everything (except maybe the barrel) from scratch. That doesn't mean I won't be using some power tools, but there'll be more hand work than in the past. I've made one lock by hand (except for rough milling the plate). After I finish putting together some locks from parts, I plan on forging and handfiling a flint lock using basically the same methods used at the Williamsburg shop. I guess what I'm trying to get at is, no matter what method a builder uses, he should try to do the best he can with what tools and materials he has to work with. I can't afford to buy everything I need so I make what I can so I can afford a good quality part that I can't. Imported locks and barrel mills abounded back in the day so it doesn't bother me a bit to buy some of these things. If I can make any of the gun by hand, a piece of me is in it and I feel a little more pride in it, but even if a man builds his gun from 100% boughten parts and uses power tools, he can feel an equal amount of pride if he put his all into it and ended up with a product that serves its purpose well. Well, I've rambled on enough. Again, I say that a gas outfit is best for ML work and I need to get out to the shop so I can fire mine up and re-temper a frizzen that I made too hard. :grin:

 

[rich pierce]

I need something welded every couple years or so. Folks with various cool tools tend to find them useful for tasks that others would approach differently. Folks who have a forge are more likely to forge some parts. I'll forge a trigger plate as opposed to milling one from thicker stock, but if I had a milling machine set up and ready to go, I'd be tempted to use that. I'll hacksaw and file dovetails instead of milling them, same reason. I'll fit breechplugs by hand, lacking a lathe. I also enjoy the skills needed to use some tools or machines, and I bet using an oxy-acetylene torch is an art that is fun to develop and use expertly.

As an aside, listening to folks who have demonstrated mastery of a craft is usually a smart move. There is a lot more to building excellent longrifles than tool preferences, but many who are truly masters in the art claim that the tools one uses impact the final product and one's skill development. In my middling experience, fine motor and eye-hand skills are developed by the use of hand tools, and often these skills translate from using one tool to another. The eye and sharpening skills and hand coordination required for engraving can impact carving, etc.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Well put Mr. Pierce. :hatsoff: Enjoy, J.D.

 

[M. De Land]

I like what you said and agree with the overall premise. I would say I have spent many more hours behind a hand file and chisels than I have behind the lathe , mill and welders. The hand work does indeed make one more steady on the machines, welding in particular,but I have also notice it when making a cross axis cut on the mill where one is manipulating both axis feeds simultaneously when milling and arc or tangent.
I have a forge and have used it with both coal and charcoal briquettes but I have done more forging with an oxygen/acetylene torch and a rose bud nozzle. Much quicker and hotter than the forge was and affords better control of where one wants the heat concentrated. MD

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Wow,

not directed at anybody in particular.

The last couple locks that I inlet were done with an egg beater drill and homemade chisels and scrapers, my first solo lock inlet was with a dremel tool, its what I learnt.
I understand the allure of assembling these firearms in a traditional manner, working my way closer with each completed project.

As far as the op's question, I have oxy/acet, acet/air, 220 lincoln buzz box, have access to and use a miller matic mig with co2, I had a couple holes welded up on a lock plate and ended up searching out a guy with a tig set up.

Tig is the most precise of the hand welding applications and seems to have the least amount of trouble with warpage, if I can find a good one used then I'll probably buy it.

On a side note, proper blocking of the lockplate or any other item being heated such as is done while pack hardening would surely reduce or eliminate any warpage issues.

 

[M. De Land]

Tom, having done a fair amount of case hardening of single shot actions I can attest that they all warp to some extent no matter how much blocking one uses and you can only block so much and still infuse carbon evenly. That is why all the old single shot actions were both soft fitted and after casing hard fitted. First go around with files and the second with stones.
I always block the tangs, block mortice and barrel hole. The rest just does what it's going to do and is re-mated to the other parts.
I used to send my actions outside to be heat treated and some of them came back so badly warped I had to get real creative to make them work again with original parts. These were always warped in the tang area so they were not blocked very well if at all. Now that I can do my own I get much better results. MD

 

[FL-Flinter]

I had a couple holes welded up on a lock plate and ended up searching out a guy with a tig set up.

Tig is the most precise of the hand welding applications and seems to have the least amount of trouble with warpage,

Tom,
This is not to pick at you but you present a prime example pertinent to the discussion.

Why did you have to seek out someone with a TIG for the lock holes when they could have easily been welded using forge, oxy-fuel, carbon-arc, MIG or stick with little to no warpage? All those different tools are more than capable of completing the task but only if the operator is capable of using the tool correctly. We could give any yahoo off the street a complete Dynasty 350 TIG machine but without an operator who knows how to use it correctly, the operator is worthless, not the tool. Likewise one cannot expect to obtain acceptable results if the tool is not capable of producing the desired results wherein the fault still lies with the operator, not the tool.
Mark

 

[Tumblernotch]

I need something welded every couple years or so. Folks with various cool tools tend to find them useful for tasks that others would approach differently. Folks who have a forge are more likely to forge some parts. I'll forge a trigger plate as opposed to milling one from thicker stock, but if I had a milling machine set up and ready to go, I'd be tempted to use that. I'll hacksaw and file dovetails instead of milling them, same reason. I'll fit breechplugs by hand, lacking a lathe. I also enjoy the skills needed to use some tools or machines, and I bet using an oxy-acetylene torch is an art that is fun to develop and use expertly.

As an aside, listening to folks who have demonstrated mastery of a craft is usually a smart move. There is a lot more to building excellent longrifles than tool preferences, but many who are truly masters in the art claim that the tools one uses impact the final product and one's skill development. In my middling experience, fine motor and eye-hand skills are developed by the use of hand tools, and often these skills translate from using one tool to another. The eye and sharpening skills and hand coordination required for engraving can impact carving, etc.

I'd much rather use old methods and tools than the new, but I found out when I had a little ornamental blacksmith business that you ain't going to make any money that way. Of course around here, you ain't going to make any money using the modern stuff either. If a guy wants to do production work and he's by himself, he is forced to use castings or a CNC machine set-up. Hand filing, forging and all the neat stuff is too labor intensive. But for most of us I think it would be beneficial for the gun builder to learn as much as he can of the old arts. So as you said, listening and watching others who are good at what they do is a good way to pass your time. And when you do get an idea of what you need to do to get the job done, obtain the best tools possible or make them. I've often suffered from having to work extra hard or not getting the best results because I was too tight to buy or in too big of a hurry to make a tool that would have made all the difference. I'm still behind at getting tools made that I need.

I do enjoy using my little lathe though. It's a cheap Harbor Freight lathe/mill and ain't the most accurate and I can't cut threads and there's no power feed, but I have made a lot of jags and other tools as well as parts not only for guns, but for mowers and other power equipment and appliances. I taught myself what little I know (a real machinist would cringe and have to go sit down and smoke a cigarette if he saw some of my methods). The machine was on sale and I took the savings and bought more tools for it. I recommend that any gun maker get himself at least a small benchtop machine just for making lock parts and screws if nothing else. Yep, a man should try to learn everything he can about using the various tools and methods, both old and new. Some of them may also serve a good purpose when he is faced with other challenges.