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Of course, since my '60 was/is a test bed for the above mentioned setup, it ( being an Uberti) has a corrected arbor length and since it would be subject to pressures mentioned, the endshake was set at a tight .002" . The endshake will probably be the determining factor of how long an individual revolver will last regardless of what is being fired in it. If you shoot full charge cap and ball, a "correct" setup will be beneficial.

Mike
 
Well, that's actually not true.
The wedge is ( becomes) an integral part when installed (driven in) as it is supposed to be. At that point it is as much arbor/barrel assy as either structure when installed.

As far as the open top being able to be a "magnum" let's consider (since we're in a "strength of " discussion) the newest Kirst cylinder for the 1860. It's in 45acp. That ammo operates around 21,000 psi which is 50% more than the long standing 45C at 14,000 psi. I was fortunate to get 1 of 5 pre production cyls a couple of months ago and the 1st to fire it. My Uberti '60 has performed perfectly for the 200 rounds put through it so far and I will say some were higher than "norm" pressure ( won't say what) . . . it was purely for testing the o.t. platform!

So, the open-top design is quite capable of handling a steady diet of 21,000 psi pressures. The wedge is perfect, the wedge slots in both the arbor and barrel assy are perfect.

Obviously the o.t. is an older design than the top strap and the Root revolver ( a Colt top strap product) predated the Remington . . . Colt dropped it and kept the o.t.!!

As far as today's S.A.'s being a Top Strap design, you might notice they are rather "substantial" in the "strap" area to handle high end pressures. It's definitely a cheaper design to produce so, that's why you see it today.

As far as what I would want "back in the day", I'd want to start with a DraGoon and a '60 !!

Mike
200 rounds with that cylinder certainly provides a data point, but you'll need to see how it does after a few thousand rounds for more data. In fact, I would do examinations of the weapon after every 500 rounds to look for changes indicating wear from the centerfire ammo.

With that being said, though, 21,000 PSI isn't really a high pressure. 38,000 and higher is where your Magnum calibers run, and plenty of top strap designs have proven themselves able to stand up to thousands of high-pressure rounds.

I really would be interested to see how many rounds your setup will run before you need to do work on the arbor or another part subject to pressure. It would be a good experiment to run and lots of fun.

I'll volunteer if you need someone to help you with the shooting, too. I wouldn't want you to wear out your hands with all of that reloading and shooting. I'm more than happy to help contribute to your scientific research efforts. 😁
 
200 rounds with that cylinder certainly provides a data point, but you'll need to see how it does after a few thousand rounds for more data. In fact, I would do examinations of the weapon after every 500 rounds to look for changes indicating wear from the centerfire ammo.

With that being said, though, 21,000 PSI isn't really a high pressure. 38,000 and higher is where your Magnum calibers run, and plenty of top strap designs have proven themselves able to stand up to thousands of high-pressure rounds.

I really would be interested to see how many rounds your setup will run before you need to do work on the arbor or another part subject to pressure. It would be a good experiment to run and lots of fun.

I'll volunteer if you need someone to help you with the shooting, too. I wouldn't want you to wear out your hands with all of that reloading and shooting. I'm more than happy to help contribute to your scientific research efforts. 😁

Honestly, I thought the "magnum " thing was "tongue in cheek ". No '58 Remington or '60 Army will be a true magnum.
My tests were function tests for a product. 21,000 psi with that other powder, using these platforms is more than any would ever see in normal use.
I've messed up more wedges in a Walker. ( with black powder) in less number of shots ( before I knew what I know today).
Wedges usually show signs of wear rather quickly since most aren't in tight and often work loose as the shooter shoots. They aren't supposed to be a referee. My first trip to the range with my Dragoons and my '60 (at the time) showed signs within the first 12 rounds each. It was obviously a "setup" thing or a "platform" thing . . . turned out to be the former . . . the platform ( correctly set up ) is perfectly sound.

Mike
 
Well, that's actually not true.
The wedge is ( becomes) an integral part when installed (driven in) as it is supposed to be. At that point it is as much arbor/barrel assy as either structure when installed.

As far as the open top being able to be a "magnum" let's consider (since we're in a "strength of " discussion) the newest Kirst cylinder for the 1860. It's in 45acp. That ammo operates around 21,000 psi which is 50% more than the long standing 45C at 14,000 psi. I was fortunate to get 1 of 5 pre production cyls a couple of months ago and the 1st to fire it. My Uberti '60 has performed perfectly for the 200 rounds put through it so far and I will say some were higher than "norm" pressure ( won't say what) . . . it was purely for testing the o.t. platform!

So, the open-top design is quite capable of handling a steady diet of 21,000 psi pressures. The wedge is perfect, the wedge slots in both the arbor and barrel assy are perfect.

Obviously the o.t. is an older design than the top strap and the Root revolver ( a Colt top strap product) predated the Remington . . . Colt dropped it and kept the o.t.!!

As far as today's S.A.'s being a Top Strap design, you might notice they are rather "substantial" in the "strap" area to handle high end pressures. It's definitely a cheaper design to produce so, that's why you see it today.

As far as what I would want "back in the day", I'd want to start with a DraGoon and a '60 !!

Mike
Hey Mike, in response to the @TrapperDude I’m interested in your opinion. Trapper said, “Even the barrel, where it mounts into that lug, is supported only from the bottom. That's a lot of force being generated all from one side, which as pressures increase, would make for some interesting long-term effects, not to mention accuracy with those higher pressures.”

I’m guessing that the primary functions of the lug are as a means to locate the loading lever and arrest rotational forces as well as arresting the downward movement of the barrel upon the moment of firing. The largest forces exerted upon it are thus in compression, and steel, even the iron and steel used back then is order of magnitude stronger in compression than in tension. In other words… no problem. What say you? Ever seen any effects upon the lug showing stress or failure of any kind?
 
What is a Uberti magnum? The only Uberti magnum I could find was a modern 44.
And that’s what I was referring to. Place it side by side with an SAA of Blackpowder vintage. You’ll notice that the strength of the revolver is derived from the use of modern materials and not by supersizing the frame, cylinder or barrel.
 
Well not saying be shifty about but it reaches a point the bride simply doesn’t know. Then again we have reached a point in life that income exceeds what’s owed. 😜
The Chief has never had any issues with our spending habits. For toys or anything else. We do have discretionary limits under which no discussion is required. She also has a very good idea of the values of everything so when I croak she’s prepared when my “friends “ come snooping around… :thumb:
 
Honestly, I thought the "magnum " thing was "tongue in cheek ". No '58 Remington or '60 Army will be a true magnum.
My tests were function tests for a product. 21,000 psi with that other powder, using these platforms is more than any would ever see in normal use.
I've messed up more wedges in a Walker. ( with black powder) in less number of shots ( before I knew what I know today).
Wedges usually show signs of wear rather quickly since most aren't in tight and often work loose as the shooter shoots. They aren't supposed to be a referee. My first trip to the range with my Dragoons and my '60 (at the time) showed signs within the first 12 rounds each. It was obviously a "setup" thing or a "platform" thing . . . turned out to be the former . . . the platform ( correctly set up ) is perfectly sound.

Mike
Yeah, tongue in cheek. I doubt anyone has the inclination to go down that road. Maybe if I was 30 years younger?
I find I'm better with a shotgun than a pistol.
As a rule, I’m the opposite. Still, handguns are best used to fight your way to your rifle, your friends, and their rifles.
 
Hey Mike, in response to the @TrapperDude Ever seen any effects upon the lug showing stress or failure of any kind?
I actually want to see a modern centerfire chambering of .357 Magnum or larger used to test that.

I doubt Mike has seen any adverse effects on the lug, given the lower pressures associated with black powder loadings.
 
Hey Mike, in response to the @TrapperDude I’m interested in your opinion. Trapper said, “Even the barrel, where it mounts into that lug, is supported only from the bottom. That's a lot of force being generated all from one side, which as pressures increase, would make for some interesting long-term effects, not to mention accuracy with those higher pressures.”

I’m guessing that the primary functions of the lug are as a means to locate the loading lever and arrest rotational forces as well as arresting the downward movement of the barrel upon the moment of firing. The largest forces exerted upon it are thus in compression, and steel, even the iron and steel used back then is order of magnitude stronger in compression than in tension. In other words… no problem. What say you? Ever seen any effects upon the lug showing stress or failure of any kind?
Well, the barrel is supported by being pulled onto the arbor ( why the arbor length is important) with great tension. The barrel lug is " located" on the frame by two pins and yes, is in a compression during firing. That makes it a foundational structure (constant) and is why the arbor length is the determining factor of "endshake". The force at firing being above the arbor is why the compression structure is just that. I agree that there is no problem and the barrel lug footprint is substantial!
I doubt Mike has seen any adverse effects on the lug, given the lower pressures associated with black powder loadings.

Right, I haven't seen any adverse effects on the lug with black powder loads . . . but I don't shoot those loads, I shoot stout unmentionable loads. The pressure for the latter loads are much more severe than the bp loads ( thus the reasonfor testing). I found that out first hand as mentioned with the first few shots fired in my Dragoons as well as my '60. The signs being material upset at the rear of the wedge slot in the barrel assy as well as the deformation of the wedge itself. I got these signs just shooting full loads in my Walker and Dragoons back in my "heyday" of shooting bp. It just happened at a slower rate.
The answer for this problem has been CORRECT BUILD EXECUTION of DESIGN and for those that exorcize "my" end of the shooting spectrum - close tolerance and the addition of a bolt block.

For those that think an inexpensive out of the box copy of your favorite revolver should be a perfect and trouble free shooter ( while shooting "fun loads" they should be able to handle), I've never experienced that . . .
Even brand new $2,000 Colt SAA's get sent to tuners/gunsmiths before "normal wear" sets in ( by those that know . . .).

Mike
 
Percussion:

Beaumont-Adams Revolver, in .44.
The pocket version in .32 made in the US would be a good back-up.

Cartridge (available in the "old" west)
SW mod 3 in .44rf/henry
SW mod 2 in .32 rf pocket gun

My choice for the late 1800's would be either the Enfield MK2 in .476 or Webley mk1 in .455, but that's not "Old West" era (1880's)
 
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Well, the barrel is supported by being pulled onto the arbor ( why the arbor length is important) with great tension. The barrel lug is " located" on the frame by two pins and yes, is in a compression during firing. That makes it a foundational structure (constant) and is why the arbor length is the determining factor of "endshake". The force at firing being above the arbor is why the compression structure is just that. I agree that there is no problem and the barrel lug footprint is substantial!


Right, I haven't seen any adverse effects on the lug with black powder loads . . . but I don't shoot those loads, I shoot stout unmentionable loads. The pressure for the latter loads are much more severe than the bp loads ( thus the reasonfor testing). I found that out first hand as mentioned with the first few shots fired in my Dragoons as well as my '60. The signs being material upset at the rear of the wedge slot in the barrel assy as well as the deformation of the wedge itself. I got these signs just shooting full loads in my Walker and Dragoons back in my "heyday" of shooting bp. It just happened at a slower rate.
The answer for this problem has been CORRECT BUILD EXECUTION of DESIGN and for those that exorcize "my" end of the shooting spectrum - close tolerance and the addition of a bolt block.

For those that think an inexpensive out of the box copy of your favorite revolver should be a perfect and trouble free shooter ( while shooting "fun loads" they should be able to handle), I've never experienced that . . .
Even brand new $2,000 Colt SAA's get sent to tuners/gunsmiths before "normal wear" sets in ( by those that know . . .).

Mike
It seems that the wedge and barrel slot would have to pretty huge to prevent deformation with the use of higher pressure loads. Even with absolutely precise fitting to prevent less than perfect contact between the wedge and the rear of the slot, that force would have to be distributed over a larger area to prevent eventual slot stretching under the force of really high pressure levels. Otherwise, the arbor and barrel slots, themselves, would stretch, even if the wedge didn't deform.
 
So if you make the slots bigger, there would be even less material which would make the arbor weaker. The main forces are fore and aft. The wedge needs to be tight fore and aft., not necessarily "precise fit" because it's purpose is to impart tension on that union. The rest of the assembly is self aligning. A loose fit here is what causes self destruction.

So, that's why "unmentionables" and especially cap & ball revolvers of the open top design can last ones lifetime and then some if executed correctly or as designed. Believe it or not, they actually knew what they were doing in the mechanical age. Forces, vibration, harmonics . . . things that some tend to poo poo today . . .

Mike

Edited, the N,S,E,W alignment of the assembly is taken care of by the arbor/ arbor bore along with the anchoring of the barrel lug/frame joint . . . the wedge brings it all together.
 
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